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Tim Sweeney: Tax bill would likely end founder control of independent companies

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Re: Tim Sweeney: Tax bill would likely end founder control of independent companies

#191
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My whole point was that this is not necessarily true, and depends on the form the spending takes place. Did you miss that? Nope, I didn't miss it, because it's not relevant. Giving money to poor tenants ends up in the pocket of landlords. Letting poorer people buy iPhones ends up in the money of shareholders and is realized as an increase in Apple stock price, etc. When you have a small group of the people dispropo…

I don't think we can have conversation. To me, the numbers are secondary to their effects, that is kind of the thesis of the function finance paper too. Concretely stuff like UBI and a JG at least in the first order takes away a power of employers now amount of nominal inequality can give back. And if the limits to spending are real and not nominal, and rich people don't spend their wealth so much, taxing them hardly…

So, consider for a moment that I've understood MMT for almost two decades now.

Also consider that there is a lot that MMT does not address, in its maniacal focus on whether it's possible to fund government programs without paying for them with taxes. There are other problems, like assuming savings demands are inelastic, but let's just focus on the distributional aspects.

One of the main drawbacks is that ZIRP or massive deficit spending is always and everywhere correlated to increasing wealth inequality vis-a-vis nations that have more balanced budgets.

Then consider that none of the social democracies that have large safety nets use MMT principles and all of them run fairly balanced budgets for a reason, and that reason is not lack of knowledge about fiat currencies. Really there is a lot less here than meets the eye, and you pay a big price for adopting these kinds of policies.

ZIRP is also a great way to privilege land over productive investment, because when you increase the duration of assets, then you want more stable assets whose value is guaranteed at the expense of more risky (productive) assets.

And it's a great way to drive down the marginal product of capital -- a good example of all these effects playing out would be Japan. Rapidly increasing inequality, small businesses are starved for loans, but tons of free money for incumbent bureaucracies and housing, and hugely inefficient large corporate bureaucracies.

By the way, it's no accident that Warren Mosler is a wealthy former hedge fund guy. It is literally the utopian economic policy of Finance, because MMT is clear that it does not want banks subject to discipline on the liability side of the balance sheet (Mosler owns his own bank and would like lower funding costs), and folks like Mosler even advocate eliminating income taxes entirely and funding the government -- oops, I forgot to say "anchoring the currency" -- based solely on a property tax. So this is a mix of forced savings, inefficient business, rising inequality, and credit allocated towards non-productive industries at the expense of productive industries.

Anyways, if you want to create a feudal society, then this is a good way to do it. But don't worry, there will be a job guarantee in there for you.

Re: Tim Sweeney: Tax bill would likely end founder control of independent companies

#192
post #106

Some observations: 1. Whatever happened to increasing tax rates, like pretty much every other country? Why these weird gimmicks? 2. A much greater cause of elite wealth accumulation is running deficits. Deficits are when you want to spend on social welfare but don't have the courage to pay for it with taxes. So you make both sides happy and increase spending while running up deficits. The reason we've seen this astro…

> 1. Whatever happened to increasing tax rates, like pretty much every other country? Why these weird gimmicks?

I got tired of reading the daily play-by-plays, but something to do with appeasing Kirsten Sinema's objection to a more straightforward tax hike.

Very few people are going to give up US citizenship. A lot of these guys can't even stand living in Florida; they're not going to hang out in the Caribbean for the rest of their lives.

Re: Tim Sweeney: Tax bill would likely end founder control of independent companies

#193

Well, one workaround would be to treat securitization of shares (eg for a loan) as a taxable event. This is a common (and currently legal) tax avoidance strategy. Another consideration is that maybe having sole control of a massive pot of cash or financial instruments by an individual is just a Bad Thing. Consider how Zuckerberg structured FB so that while he it's a public company, the bulk of the stock is non-voting…

I doubt SpaceX or Tesla would exist if they were controlled by a committee. Doing great things usually requires control by a single person who is able to say "screw it, we're going for X".

Elon Musk controls less than 25% of the voting shares of Tesla, yet the company still exists and in fact is thriving.

How many shares of Apple did Steve Jobs control when he was the CEO?

This is just a ridiculous argument that companies can only succeed if the Founders/CEOs have absolute voting control. There are many examples of shareholders being more than happy to put their votes behind whatever the CEO wants as long as they believe in the CEO.

Re: Tim Sweeney: Tax bill would likely end founder control of independent companies

#194

The current tax situation is like property taxes in California before Prop 19: nobody sells, so ownership and control never changes. This facilitates wealth transfer from generation to generation (in the equity case, though the use of trusts) and perpetuates wealth inequality.

Except there’s a 40% estate tax still levied at each generation. Plus unlike European aristocracy, American plutocrats rarely intermarry. Even if you’re only reproducing at replacement, your wealth gets diluted by 50% each generation. Stack the two and you’re getting slashed by 80% every generation. Don’t take my word for it. How many fourth generational heirs do we see among America’s wealthiest billionaires? Essent…

I went to a an expensive private school for college and there were a lot of old money students there. They didn’t all have the last name “Carnegie” or something else imminently recognizable, of course.

Plus, that money may get divided and spent over time, but it’s usually invested. It’s not like after 100 years it’s the same amount of money adjusted for inflation, if the next generations didn’t mismanage it.

Re: Tim Sweeney: Tax bill would likely end founder control of independent companies

#195

Bad idea to tax unrealized capital gains. Proposal; How about we gut our entire tax code and replace it with a single tax that taxes when money moves from one entity to another. Let's call it a Transaction Tax. It would replace Sales Tax, Income Tax, Capital Gains Tax, Inheritance Tax, etc and introduce tax on debt creation (when the bank gives you the money). This would close all loop holes and put the entire tax in…

So having suppliers instead of being vertically integrated gets taxed repeatedly. This is the whole reason the VAT taxes value added, not the whole transaction. I have to wonder whether you’ve even looked at existing tax systems, or spent any time sketching out what the consequences of yours might be.

> So having suppliers instead of being vertically integrated gets taxed repeatedly.

Yes. But maybe having a long chain of suppliers is worth a tax penalty.

The vertically integrated company has a stronger incentive to stay solvent.

I’m thinking particularly about construction businesses here.

Re: Tim Sweeney: Tax bill would likely end founder control of independent companies

#196

This proposal seemed utterly reasonable to me, especially this: > US budget deficits don’t require a radical confiscation scheme like this. We already have a very effective progressive tax system which applies the same rules - but different rates - to everyone. If tax revenue is too low, just raise the top tax brackets That, together with closing the step-up-in-basis loophole, are the simplest ways to more equitably…

The issue is that many billionaires effectively have zero revenue. For example, Elon's salary at Tesla is 0$ per year. So you can increase the top bracket all you want, they won't pay more.

Instead they get liquidity through loans backed by their shares, on which they of course have no tax.

I agree that taxing based on unrealised gains is not a good solution, but I don't see how raising the top bracket solves that either.

Re: Tim Sweeney: Tax bill would likely end founder control of independent companies

#197

Well, one workaround would be to treat securitization of shares (eg for a loan) as a taxable event. This is a common (and currently legal) tax avoidance strategy. Another consideration is that maybe having sole control of a massive pot of cash or financial instruments by an individual is just a Bad Thing. Consider how Zuckerberg structured FB so that while he it's a public company, the bulk of the stock is non-voting…

[deleted]

Re: Tim Sweeney: Tax bill would likely end founder control of independent companies

#199
post #106

Some observations: 1. Whatever happened to increasing tax rates, like pretty much every other country? Why these weird gimmicks? 2. A much greater cause of elite wealth accumulation is running deficits. Deficits are when you want to spend on social welfare but don't have the courage to pay for it with taxes. So you make both sides happy and increase spending while running up deficits. The reason we've seen this astro…

Why would a billionaire leave the US? There they are like gods with services to cater to their every whim. Nowhere else in the world will roll out the carpet for big money like the US does (excluding maybe Monaco and other small states). I just see 3 as a false assumption, as any country they 'flee' to will have higher taxes anyway. I live in New Zealand and a billionaire here can have a lot of land but otherwise we…

Warren Buffet lives in a 6000 sq ft (~600 sqm) house, drives a 2014 Cadillac, and has McDonald's for breakfast. Despite owning one of the most valuable companies in the world at most one could say he lives like a single-digit millionaire. If your characterization of the "average people" of New Zealand is true, then it seems like he would have no problem fitting right in.

Re: Tim Sweeney: Tax bill would likely end founder control of independent companies

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that giant companies eventually collapse under the weight of their own greed and complacency doesn’t mean they don’t engage in anticompetitive behavior while they’re at the top.

It means they were not successful at crushing their competitors.

Those largest companies from 20 years ago didn't fail, they are all doing very well (well, GE excepted), they just did not grow nearly as fast as new tech did.
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