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Female African elephants are evolving without tusks due to ivory poaching

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Re: Female African elephants are evolving without tusks due to ivory poaching

#141

Post by esturk »

bialpio wrote: post #128
csours wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Evolution is an umbrella term, but in the most general form, evolution means a change in genetics in a population over time. So yes, the genetic 'option' was there before, but it is advantageous now.

Except it's only advantageous to female elephants, according to the article: "They identified two likely genes AMELX and MEP1a, which are passed from mothers to the offspring on the X chromosome. But if a disrupted gene is passed in a male elephant, the elephant dies; the female elephant would instead evolve to be born without tusks. " What would be the effect of this on male elephant population when taken to the lim…

Maybe not as much as you would think. Naturally, not all males mate and the mating ratio is not always 1:1. Take humans for example, it's been shown our ancestors comprise mostly of females in a ratio roughly 3:2 to males. That is, some male ancestor probably mated with more than one female ancestor somewhere.

Re: Female African elephants are evolving without tusks due to ivory poaching

#142

Post by teeray »

geoffmanning wrote: post #4
gpt5 wrote: post #2

While sad as a whole, the responsiveness of evolution is beautiful in this case. It also demonstrates that human efforts to stop poaching have not been successful (otherwise this evolution wouldn’t happen), but luckily, nature responds.

Not sure 'beautiful' or 'lucky' are words i'd use to describe it. Did you catch that the males of tuskless mothers generally don't survive, decimating the male population? It's a tragic and desperate response, though quite incredible that such a dramatic evolutionary trait can occur. It makes me wonder what we could become, if only...

Life, uh, finds a way…

Re: Female African elephants are evolving without tusks due to ivory poaching

#143

Post by UnFleshedOne »

redleggedfrog wrote: post #135
gpt5 wrote: post #2

While sad as a whole, the responsiveness of evolution is beautiful in this case. It also demonstrates that human efforts to stop poaching have not been successful (otherwise this evolution wouldn’t happen), but luckily, nature responds.

It's too bad there is not a gene for making the tusk highly radioactive or shoot out like rockets at the poachers. I guess that's asking a lot of evolution - it's already done a lot for us.

lol, elephants would be wiped out in a few years if they start doing something like that. First rule of dealing with humans is not to be too effective at it.

Re: Female African elephants are evolving without tusks due to ivory poaching

#144

Post by BitwiseFool »

lowkey_ wrote: post #94
nickff wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "It's ridiculous and a little bit ironic that something supposedly to bring good fortune will result in wide scale killing of animals, living earthlings." How is this ironic? Most cultures have prized animal products throughout recorded history, and many have practiced sacrifices, which is literally the killing of the being.

Not the parent, but the irony is that to bring good fortune, you bring incredible misfortune (extinction, even) upon other living things.

Taking it a step further, the "value" of a sacrifice depends on how precious the thing is that you are sacrificing. Sacrificing a mouse is not the same as sacrificing a healthy goat.

Re: Female African elephants are evolving without tusks due to ivory poaching

#145

Post by marginalia_nu »

ehsankia wrote: post #90
lowkey_ wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the above commenter recognized that; that's exactly how these evolutions pretty much always work in nature, not unique to this case.

Right, but "natural selection" generally doesn't include human influence, but that's semantics. Would you also say that fruits that are selectively bred to be bigger and juicier are also under the influence of "natural selection"?

Humans aren't some supernatural force. We're very much a part of nature as well.

Re: Female African elephants are evolving without tusks due to ivory poaching

#146

Post by bluGill »

abruzzi wrote: post #59
tombert wrote: post #8

Honest question from someone who knows virtually nothing about chemistry or material science: is there a difference in quality between synthetic and natural ivory? If not, why is poaching even still a viable market?

as an amateur pianist, I've played pianos with and without ivory keys, and the feel of ivory is a bit better. I'm not sure why, but it seems like it doesn't get as slick from sweat as you play. Of course, piano keys are not the cause of current ivory demand to the best of my knowledge, and I'll happily take non-ivory keys.

Piano makers have not used real Ivory in many years. There is a market for used ivory on pianos, but that is only to repair antique pianos. Piano makes/owners have been careful about this for long enough that pianos with real ivory get a pass because everyone understands they are dealing only with ivory from before we knew better.

Re: Female African elephants are evolving without tusks due to ivory poaching

#147

Post by evolution_1 »

ehsankia wrote: post #90
lowkey_ wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the above commenter recognized that; that's exactly how these evolutions pretty much always work in nature, not unique to this case.

Right, but "natural selection" generally doesn't include human influence, but that's semantics. Would you also say that fruits that are selectively bred to be bigger and juicier are also under the influence of "natural selection"?

> "natural selection" generally doesn't include human influence

It absolutely can. Artificial selection is just a form of natural selection where the environmental pressure is human breeding.

Re: Female African elephants are evolving without tusks due to ivory poaching

#148

Post by mulmen »

Is this actually evolution or just selective breeding?

By killing elephants with tusks the poachers are favoring elephants with the no-tusk gene.

This isn't a lot different than killing a dog that bites sheep, which is how we bred herding dogs. Or a wolf that eats your baby, which is how we domesticated dogs.

This trait already existed so it certainly wasn't "engineered due to mass poaching for ivory" as claimed.

Re: Female African elephants are evolving without tusks due to ivory poaching

#149

Post by kuhewa »

gowld wrote: post #71
csours wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Evolution is an umbrella term, but in the most general form, evolution means a change in genetics in a population over time. So yes, the genetic 'option' was there before, but it is advantageous now.

Evolution has two main components. The random variation was already there. The natural selection is doing its part now.

There are more main components than that. Sometimes forces like drift are stronger than adaptive selection.

Re: Female African elephants are evolving without tusks due to ivory poaching

#150

Post by beebmam »

With discussions around evolution, I try to keep in mind that the main pressure for evolution is from natural selection, and natural selection works on death. Plenty of species have been "naturally selected" for total extermination.

It's difficult to keep ethics out of discussions when facing the reality of life: that there is a massive amount of death and suffering, and it's a terrifying thing we're all forced into, including these elephants.

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