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The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)

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Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)

#31

Post by zepto »

jerf wrote: post #8
zepto wrote: post #6

Good article in general, except for the title. I know many people and see many people online who understand these truths. The hard part is creating a viable alternative culture that can make collective choices about technology use. It’s also worth noting that the Amish rely on the ‘English’ I.e. American legal system and military for their defense. Their way of life doesn’t stand alone outside of American society.

They could manage without our legal system, I'm sure, but I think there's some profundity in the military point. It does no good to create some sort of utopia if that utopia hasn't got an answer to smart bombs or paratroopers, etc. The fundamental game theory of the modern world's arms race has to be considered in any attempt to structure the perfect society.

Our legal system is what protects their land and property from just being taken by other Americans. It also allows them to maintain a lifestyle with minimal interaction with the state.

Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)

#32

Post by woolion »

An interesting read about the subject is the small 'utopian' book Erewhon by Samuel Butler, published in 1872. It considers the implications of the industrial revolution on society, and thus how it shapes the industrial society and its future. The relationship with the religious power structure is quite enlightening.

Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)

#33

Post by logosmonkey »

sleepysysadmin wrote: post #4

It's not just the Amish. Many communities have decided they wish to live at ~1850. It has always made me curious why, what do they know? If you look deeply in many religions they are the same. Buddhist monks aren't excluded from tech but they certainly dont own any themselves. Why? Because it's something to consider and create desires. Just as they shave their head not because of aesthetics but because now you never…

Many Buddhist monks own cell phones. Many even own laptops. Additionally let's not romanticize the Amish community. They have significant social issues just like any other society, their lack of modern technology doesn't make their society a utopia, it just makes it different. Maybe in some good ways, sure, but it doesn't solve for endemic rape, incest and abuse for instance.

Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)

#34

Post by zepto »

terr-dav wrote: post #16
zepto wrote: post #6

Good article in general, except for the title. I know many people and see many people online who understand these truths. The hard part is creating a viable alternative culture that can make collective choices about technology use. It’s also worth noting that the Amish rely on the ‘English’ I.e. American legal system and military for their defense. Their way of life doesn’t stand alone outside of American society.

>The hard part is creating a viable alternative culture that can make collective choices about technology use. This alternative culture is impossible under capitalism, where the tendency is for any and every technology to be acquired and applied in the service of the already rich and powerful.

The tendency exists for sure, but there is nothing supporting the claim that it’s impossible. The Amish themselves are an example. Also there are other eco villages and communities that have managed.

Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)

#35

Post by setpatchaddress »

sleepysysadmin wrote: post #4

It's not just the Amish. Many communities have decided they wish to live at ~1850. It has always made me curious why, what do they know? If you look deeply in many religions they are the same. Buddhist monks aren't excluded from tech but they certainly dont own any themselves. Why? Because it's something to consider and create desires. Just as they shave their head not because of aesthetics but because now you never…

https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/buddhist-monks-with-the...

It's more complicated than that. Always.

The monks I've known accept modern science, medicine, etc cheerfully. It's not really relevant to Buddhist spirituality any more than the advent of frozen fish sticks was.

It's fine to LARP 1850 if that's your bag. But people who truly wish to live in the confines of that era will have children who die of cholera. We should all be grateful for the upsides of modern society.

Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)

#36

Post by jl6 »

> But they carefully consider how each [technology] will change their culture before embracing it. And the best clue as to what will happen comes from watching their neighbors.

This knowledge is not unknown in the English world. This is how most large, conservative financial organizations manage technology. They don’t dive into new technology without some very careful consideration.

Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)

#37

Post by jayspell »

reidjs wrote: post #3
paul7986 wrote: post #2

I live outside of Pennsylvania Dutch country and two weeks ago driving in that area I was shocked to see many horse and buggy drivers distracted by their iPhones.

"The Amish don’t always reject a technology, but they have very specific rules about how it is to be used." Maybe they determined a way to use their iphones without them being harmful? I.e. using specific apps or only in certain circumstances.

The other key is that each community decides for themselves what is permitted and not permitted. Some Amish are permitted to drive cars, but only if the car is black, but this is community specific. Source - my brother-in-laws family left the Amish when he was young, so he got to see both worlds.

Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)

#38

Post by op00to »

jerf wrote: post #8
zepto wrote: post #6

Good article in general, except for the title. I know many people and see many people online who understand these truths. The hard part is creating a viable alternative culture that can make collective choices about technology use. It’s also worth noting that the Amish rely on the ‘English’ I.e. American legal system and military for their defense. Their way of life doesn’t stand alone outside of American society.

They could manage without our legal system, I'm sure, but I think there's some profundity in the military point. It does no good to create some sort of utopia if that utopia hasn't got an answer to smart bombs or paratroopers, etc. The fundamental game theory of the modern world's arms race has to be considered in any attempt to structure the perfect society.

Could they? If they were outside the legal system I would simply steal their land and build McMansions on it.

Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)

#39

Post by ARandomerDude »

leephillips wrote: post #15
h2odragon wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Committed pacifists may not feel as much need for the military.

“[Pacifism] is only possible to people who have money and guns between themselves and reality.” -- George Orwell In other words, you can be as “committed” to pacifism as you want, but your life and freedom, and your indulgence in your pacifist philosophy, is made possible by other people’s commitment to the defense against violence with violence, and, often, to their sacrifice.

I'm not a pacifist (combat veteran, actually) but I'll point out that you may be missing something on their side of the argument.

There are some things worth dying for (for example, freedom as you point out). A pacifist has a similar mentality, but believes not taking a life is worth dying for.

Both the pacifist and the non-pacifist want freedom, but the pacifist would rather surrender liberty than kill if that's what it comes to. By analogy, I want to keep my car, but I would not shoot anyone who tried to steal it even though it's legal where I live. I might hate what they're doing but I value their life more than my car.

Re: The Amish have negotiated a pact with modernity (2018)

#40

Post by moedersmooiste »

throwawayboise wrote: post #25
leephillips wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is me. Especially the car part. Owning a car is such a burden that I’m really enjoying being able to not have one. Of course, some people do need to own a vehicle, but if you can manage without it, I recommend it.

There are places where owning a car is a burden. I have lived in such a place and I didn't like it. There are pther places where owning a car is pretty much essential. I'd give up computers and the internet entirely before I gave up my car.

Really curious what those places are. Because for me it's the other way around. I live in a Dutch city where you can get around easily by walking, biking or public transport. And for those rare occasions I need a car, I use a car sharing service. Don't know if you live in car-dependent suburbia(most people do), but that doesn't sound appealing at all.
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