Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investors and miners

techspot.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

201–210 of 486 posts

Re: Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investors and miners

#201

Post by nuerow »

koonsolo wrote: post #186
nuerow wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They of course do give a damn about theoretical concepts such as "The Great Monetary Inflation" It seems you tried to shift the subject mid-discussion and thus move the goalpost. The point being discussed was "proof of violence by the state", but somehow you've tried to change subject mid-discussion to inflation and how they argue that going long in BTC is a profitable investment. In fact, the Winklevoss Capital ar…

> the Winklevoss Capital article you quoted even praise the US dollar as "a reliable store of value" Haha, you must be blind. Nowhere in the article did they say that. I quote: "we believe there are fundamental problems with gold, oil, and the U.S. dollar as stores of value going forward". Then they go on to explain how the dollar is mismanaged. Have fun living in your own world.

> Haha, you must be blind. Nowhere in the article did they say that.

Second paragraph. Hard to miss by anyone who clicked on the link. Be my guest and check it out.

> I quote: "we believe there are fundamental problems with gold, oil, and the U.S. dollar as stores of value going forward".

Somehow you managed to skip just enough of the text to glance over the part I quoted and you claimed it doesn't exist. That isn't very honest of you.

Anyway, it seems you also failed to notice that the thesis of that article is that the economic stimulus programs adopted by not only the US but also essentially the whole world, like any Keynesian policy applied to an economic downturn, involves policies that devalue the dollar through inflation.

They also argue that they believe that gold is immune but has a fixed supply that can accompany increases in demand.

Based on these points, they proceed to argue that Bitcoin is a better long term investment because, unlike gold and the US Dollar, it's supply is capped, thus it's value is bound to grow faster than inflation and gold prices, provided that demand continues to grow.

With this in mind, do you actually understand the sales pitch made by Winklevoss Capital?

Re: Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investors and miners

#202

Post by Softcadbury »

qeternity wrote: post #198
robocat wrote: post #161

“The 50 richest Americans now hold almost as much wealth as half of the U.S.” - Bloomberg - https://archive.vn/25Bz4 Is there any reason to think bitcoin is that much different from ownership ratios of other financial assets?

Yes, we know who those 50 are, and the wealth they own is in highly regulated markets. We know what they own, how much they own, when they buy/sell. We also dictate that they cannot trade on insider info and must generally play fair. Say all you want about the efficacy of the above measures, they are absolutely not perfect. But it's completely different to bitcoin where none of the above applies, and often the opposi…

Exactly, and they can't influence on the price of the dollar by selling all their assets

Re: Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investors and miners

#203

Post by hnbad »

nuerow wrote: post #139
spiorf wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Motivation of participants is irrelevant. Bitcoin is working because its participants are greedy and behave as such.

> Motivation of participants is irrelevant. Bitcoin is working because its participants are greedy and behave as such. The key problem you're trying to glance over is the fact that not all participants have the same degree of influence or control. A greedy participant who is in a position to manipulate the market to fit his goals is in an entirely different position than a greedy participant who is completely powerle…

> Is it ok if someone participating in a Ponzi scheme is fleeced just because you accuse him of being greedy?

I know this is counter-intuitive, but yes. Yes, they think that.

They think that human nature is to be greedy and screw other people over to your own advantage. This is what they mean that capitalism is natural because it builds on human nature. Nevermind that for most of history human societies have been built on gift economies or that humans always cooperate in times of extreme crisis unless there are external influences explicitly preventing it.

Social interactions are transactional to them and if you luck out by participating in a Ponzi scheme early that's good and righteous but if you lose by coming in late and being fleeced, it's your own fault. Luck justifies the spoils of success.

Re: Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investors and miners

#204

Post by capableweb »

nuerow wrote: post #141
Hermel wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The top 1000 investors hold 15% of the supply? That’s not “highly centralized” if you compare to the stock market. For Tesla, one single shareholder holds 17% of the whole company.

> For Tesla, one single shareholder holds 17% of the whole company. If said investor abused his leverage to manipulate the stock value to dump his holding on unwitting buyers prior to making it tank, he would be facing a prison sentence. In BTC that would be just another uneventful day.

The problem is that an investor that holds 17% has leverage. In Bitcoin, having a certain percentage of the supply means nothing really, and you can abuse a leverage that doesn't exist.

It's more likely that the developers has leverage that could be abused, but then their own holdings would tank, so unlikely to happen.

Re: Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investors and miners

#205

Post by erispoe »

beambot wrote: post #142
Gustomaximus wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A company is very different from a currency. Apples and oranges comparing those in terms of centralisation.

How does the USD currency compare? I'd wager that the top-10 banks and the various central reserve banks own or control the vast majority of USD.

Fiat currency is a state monopoly. That's how it's designed to work.

Re: Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investors and miners

#206

Post by nuerow »

hnbad wrote: post #203
nuerow wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Motivation of participants is irrelevant. Bitcoin is working because its participants are greedy and behave as such. The key problem you're trying to glance over is the fact that not all participants have the same degree of influence or control. A greedy participant who is in a position to manipulate the market to fit his goals is in an entirely different position than a greedy participant who is completely powerle…

> Is it ok if someone participating in a Ponzi scheme is fleeced just because you accuse him of being greedy? I know this is counter-intuitive, but yes. Yes, they think that. They think that human nature is to be greedy and screw other people over to your own advantage. This is what they mean that capitalism is natural because it builds on human nature. Nevermind that for most of history human societies have been bui…

> Nevermind that for most of history human societies have been built on gift economies or that humans always cooperate in times of extreme crisis unless there are external influences explicitly preventing it.

The key point here is that in BTC, or any crypto or unregulated market, there is no external influence preventing it. In fact, there are only external influences ensuring that they will screw up the little guy and fleece them out of their hard-earned money.

With real money, we have central banks actively working to both stabilize it's value and increase economic growth. That's as close there is to "cooperating in times of extreme crisis" there is at a national or even regional scale.

With crypto in general and BTC in particular, the name of the game is pumping it and let everyone else end up holding the bag.

Re: Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investors and miners

#207

Post by peskysamurai »

SergeAx wrote: post #195

> top 10,000 individual Bitcoin investors control roughly one third of the cryptocurrency in circulation > top 1,000 individual investors accounted for about three million of the 8.5 million Bitcoins controlled by the top 10,000 investors I beleive same stats are available for stock markets. I wonder what numbers are there.

According to the article below, it seems like there’s a similar level of inequality in the stock market as well.

https://awealthofcommonsense.com/2021/10/ownership-inequalit...

Re: Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investors and miners

#208

Post by More-nitors »

2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #114
Hermel wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The top 1000 investors hold 15% of the supply? That’s not “highly centralized” if you compare to the stock market. For Tesla, one single shareholder holds 17% of the whole company.

But isn’t the dream to have some distributed system that no one can control? As an outsider looking in and comparing to the perceived values, this is yet another reason crypto is not worth your attention.

well wasn't the dream about "no-fee transactions"?

"no one can control" means:

1. you can't get bail-outs from phishing/fraud/mistakes (there are card companies/banks that actually provide this service)

2. combined with anonymity, means more wiggle-room for tax-evasion/black-market... (though if you look carefully, you'll have to 'financially-dance' a lot to get actual anonymity in bitcoin... all transactions are logged, right?)

Re: Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investors and miners

#209

Post by krageon »

qeternity wrote: post #198
robocat wrote: post #161

“The 50 richest Americans now hold almost as much wealth as half of the U.S.” - Bloomberg - https://archive.vn/25Bz4 Is there any reason to think bitcoin is that much different from ownership ratios of other financial assets?

Yes, we know who those 50 are, and the wealth they own is in highly regulated markets. We know what they own, how much they own, when they buy/sell. We also dictate that they cannot trade on insider info and must generally play fair. Say all you want about the efficacy of the above measures, they are absolutely not perfect. But it's completely different to bitcoin where none of the above applies, and often the opposi…

> highly regulated

Regulated by them, so in practice not all that regulated

Re: Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investors and miners

#210

Post by jimmydorry »

EdwardDiego wrote: post #171
jimmydorry wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corrupt states have a monopoly on violence. There is no such similar force ensuring people have to use the crypto made available to them. The Bitcoin network operates by balancing the economic incentives of each party, and at any point, any party is free to walk away. __Developers:__ * Profit motive: Paid salaries / bounties / donations by users, business that build off the Blockchain, miners, and appreciation from t…

> Corrupt states have a monopoly on violence Do you believe all states to be corrupt?

No? Using the same terms as GP.
Post reply on HN