“The 50 richest Americans now hold almost as much wealth as half of the U.S.” - Bloomberg - https://archive.vn/25Bz4
Is there any reason to think bitcoin is that much different from ownership ratios of other financial assets?
Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investors and miners
161–170 of 486 posts
Re: Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investors and miners
#162Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Soooo. . . you're saying a tiny fraction of the population controls the vast majority of the resource? You mean just like every other major resource on the planet? :) I understand the need to try to dismiss this problem, specially from those who have a dog in the race, but the dream of having a magical pseudo-currency that solves all problems and unexplainably makes everyone richer and richer just falls out flat if…
> magical pseudo-currency that solves all problems and unexplainably makes everyone richer and richer That's not what's exciting about bitcoin. What's exciting is that it is the first digital, global money that isn't protected by the proof of violence of the state. The US dollar is the world reserve currency because the United States is the best in the world at deploying destructive power, and the British and French…
Hah, its all protected by the proof of violence state. When someone is physically trying to take your assets, your going to convert that currency as fast as possible into physical force or protection.
The problem is a deep misunderstanding of currency. The structure of currency is a tool humans use to exert and identify power within groups. The idea that a decentralized currency will change human nature or goals to control miss the forrest for the trees.
We are animals the violence, control and waning and waxing dominance is the only predictable outcome.
Re: Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investors and miners
#163Earlier quoted context omitted.
The difference is that traditional money is up front about that fact and doesn't use decentralization as a selling point.
There seems to be a weird perception that decentralization means that there won't be inequality of power in the system. That's not what it means. Decentralization simply means that there is no central power that can make unilateral decisions about the system like a government can with its currency. This explicit decentralization of power is what people are excited about, because it means any change to the system requ…
You nailed it. Bitcoin is not some kind of panacea that will make everyone rich. It's just money that cannot be fucked with by central bankers, governments, dictators or anyone else for that matter.
That's it.
Re: Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investors and miners
#164Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Soooo. . . you're saying a tiny fraction of the population controls the vast majority of the resource? You mean just like every other major resource on the planet? :) I understand the need to try to dismiss this problem, specially from those who have a dog in the race, but the dream of having a magical pseudo-currency that solves all problems and unexplainably makes everyone richer and richer just falls out flat if…
If you think the article provides evidence for any of what you are saying, you should read it again. Do you really believe the 1000 top holders of Bitcoin that control together about 15% of the supply somehow conspired together to manipulate the price? Yes, there is a lot of small scale shenanigans with crypto currencies, but Bitcoin has become very hard to manipulate due to the sheer size of the market.
I really believe that. Remember that the size of the housing market didn't protect it from manipulation in the early 2000s - having a huge pile of independent market participants doesn't mean they can't all be tricked into trading at the same inflated prices.
Re: Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investors and miners
#165Earlier quoted context omitted.
> That's not what's exciting about bitcoin. What's exciting is that it is the first digital, global money that isn't protected by the proof of violence of the state. No, not really. At all. You're trying to make it sound like everyone is just an anarchist activist trying to fight the power, when in reality it's just people scrambling to make a quick buck. Let's be real and put it in perspective: do you feel that peop…
> do you feel that people such as the Winklevoss twins give a damn about theoretical concepts such as "proof of violence by the state"? They of course do give a damn about theoretical concepts such as "The Great Monetary Inflation" They make a pretty good case for bitcoin at https://winklevosscapital.com/the-case-for-500k-bitcoin/ But don't worry about all of this, I'm sure you can just dismiss this all. Meanwhile ou…
> They of course do give a damn about theoretical concepts such as "The Great Monetary Inflation"
It seems you tried to shift the subject mid-discussion and thus move the goalpost. The point being discussed was "proof of violence by the state", but somehow you've tried to change subject mid-discussion to inflation and how they argue that going long in BTC is a profitable investment.
In fact, the Winklevoss Capital article you quoted even praise the US dollar as "a reliable store of value" and even go as far as praising the Federal Reserve and it's "comparatively good management".
This doesn't sound like "fight the power" to me. In fact, it just reads as a marketing brochure selling an investment.
Re: Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investors and miners
#166Owners of coins have absolutely no control over bitcoin. They can't "vote" with their coins for any change in the protocol. Miners can, but to a very small degree. The real control lies in the hands of those who hold keys to Bitcoin GitHub repository, bitcoin.org web site and /r/Bitcoin subreddit. They can do whatever they want - increase block size, change mining algorithm, increase Bitcoin supply etc.
> They can do whatever they want - increase block size, change mining algorithm, increase Bitcoin supply etc.
I won't deny that they do hold some power, but I don't think it is as complete as you claim. There is in effect counter-powers to the devs: miners and users.
Imagine a scenario where the guys who have commit access tot the repo decided to change the block size via a hard fork (much like what happened with bitcoin cash).
The next day, there would be a new github repo with the unforked original code, and there would be two Bitcoins sharing a common history up until the fork.
Some miners would switch to the new fork, some would stay on the original one.
Much like what happened with bcash, there would quickly be people selling the fork they don't believe in and buying the one they like.
Before long, the users (and the miners) would essentially do what amounts to a vote (some with mining power, others with buying and selling), and we would end up in a situation like the one we have today: BTC at $66000, BCASH at $600.
So, some power (like with the taproot upgrade, which ended up having actual consensus with miners and did not create a revolution with the users), not absolute power to decide what Bitcoin is and isn't.
Re: Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investors and miners
#167Control is only a problem if the incentives of the person in control are not aligned with ones own incentives. When you drive on the highway, every single driver in the oncoming traffic is in control of a car that would kill you if they just decide to move their steering wheel into your direction. Luckily, there is little incentive for them to do so. So driving is relatively safe. When you invest into Bitcoin, there…
Yeah, many people seem to completely miss the game-theoretical feedback loops built into Bitcoin, the most obvious of which being "fuck with the system, shoot yourself in the foot".
Re: Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investors and miners
#168Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Soooo. . . you're saying a tiny fraction of the population controls the vast majority of the resource? You mean just like every other major resource on the planet? :) I understand the need to try to dismiss this problem, specially from those who have a dog in the race, but the dream of having a magical pseudo-currency that solves all problems and unexplainably makes everyone richer and richer just falls out flat if…
> magical pseudo-currency that solves all problems and unexplainably makes everyone richer and richer That's not what's exciting about bitcoin. What's exciting is that it is the first digital, global money that isn't protected by the proof of violence of the state. The US dollar is the world reserve currency because the United States is the best in the world at deploying destructive power, and the British and French…
> . The US dollar is the world reserve currency because the United States is the best in the world at deploying destructive power,
Orrrrr.... because its value is backed by the world's largest economy?
Re: Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investors and miners
#169Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Soooo. . . you're saying a tiny fraction of the population controls the vast majority of the resource? You mean just like every other major resource on the planet? :) I understand the need to try to dismiss this problem, specially from those who have a dog in the race, but the dream of having a magical pseudo-currency that solves all problems and unexplainably makes everyone richer and richer just falls out flat if…
"but the dream of having a magical pseudo-currency that solves all problems and unexplainably makes everyone richer and richer " I never heard that claim from crypto supporters, only from critics.
You need to read more of their subreddits then.
Re: Bitcoin is largely controlled by a small group of investors and miners
#170Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Soooo. . . you're saying a tiny fraction of the population controls the vast majority of the resource? You mean just like every other major resource on the planet? :) I understand the need to try to dismiss this problem, specially from those who have a dog in the race, but the dream of having a magical pseudo-currency that solves all problems and unexplainably makes everyone richer and richer just falls out flat if…
> a magical pseudo-currency that solves all problems and unexplainably makes everyone richer and richer That is not what cryptocurrency enthusiasts believe. I understand that you have to explain to yourself why others are dumber than you, even though they made crazy amounts of gains. But maybe in the end, we just see something that you refuse to see.
> But maybe in the end, we just see something that you refuse to see.
I'm assuming you see an infinite supply of greater fools.