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Hertz orders 100k Teslas

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Re: Hertz orders 100k Teslas

#481
post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla’s stock price is confusing if you compare them to a car company. But they are not just a car company. They are also a car manufacturing supply chain, having brought much of their component production in house. They are also an energy company, both generation and storage, but also distribution, like gas stations. Think Exxon, BP, Chevron, ARCO, etc. They are probably a few other things, but this is the mystery o…

> They are also a car manufacturing supply chain, having brought much of their component production in house. They are also an energy company, both generation and storage, but also distribution, like gas stations. So basically a car company. GM makes their cars in-house. They own their own parts supplier (acdelco) and charging/distribution network (Ultium Charge 360). Ford and Stellantis are working on the same.

Like other car companies, also their own finance arm.

Re: Hertz orders 100k Teslas

#482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That one is complicated a bit by housing situation - but if, if , cities and freeholders get serious about ensuring every possible parking spot (including unmarked ones) has a convenient electrical outlet nearby, that would be a game changer. In a sense, this would be much cheaper and more convenient than supercharger stations - but what it trades in infrastructure saving, it costs in getting myriad of land owners an…

You're totally right but again thinking globally, different cultures handle housing in a manner that supports that. I'm thinking of Japan, where they rebuild houses every few years because they're old. Which results in most houses having electric car plugs in them. I have no such hope for my SF condo that I'm writing you from. Maybe I can run an extension cord out of my window to my car parked on the street?

> I'm thinking of Japan, where they rebuild houses every few years because they're old.

This is myth. 35yr loan is pretty basic, most loan supports up to 50yr. We can see many houses built 35yr ago. Anyway, installing EV charger is easy task for own house. It just takes about from $200 if 200V line is available. I believe mostly available unless the house is very old.

More importantly, there are many condos and parking that's hard to install charger due to it need to be approved in condo committee.

Re: Hertz orders 100k Teslas

#483
post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Norway is the most mature EV market in the world and it's not clear from the sales statistics that Tesla is winning. They sell a lot of vehicles, but not the most (might be winning in profits though).

Isn’t this due to supply constraints, at least in part? There simply are not enough teslas available to meet current demand, so they end up buying other brands to avoid waiting a few months.

Isn't it applied for most EVs?

Re: Hertz orders 100k Teslas

#484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but plugin electrics are already cheap enough. They're just not made by Tesla. Nissan Leaf $28,375 Mazda MX-30 $34,645 Hyundai Ioniq $34,650 https://www.cars.com/articles/here-are-the-11-cheapest-elect...

They don't seem equivalent: 1. Nissan Leaf $28,375 - 150 Mile range for this price. (It is not advisable to drive this car long distances because the battery overheats and will reduce charging) 2. Mazda MX-30 $34,645 - ~100 mile range (ideal conditions) 3. Hyundai Ioniq $34,650 - 170 miles Model 3 starts at 262 Miles and has the superchargers + most of the stuff Tesla is known for included (sentry mode, good UI softw…

All of this true, but none of it is relevant.

All of the cars I listed are real street legal cars (no NEVs), available for purchase today (no concepts), that are plugin electrics (no hybrids) with a range in excess of 100 miles, with a price less than $40,000. These are viable inexpensive cars. That was the criteria. Arguing that these don't count because they're not comparable to one that costs 50% more, isn't fair.

The state with longest average commute distance is New Hampshire at 46 miles.[0] Even if that’s one way, that’s only 100 miles a day. Assuming you can only charge overnight, you’ll never use that extra range. You'll never even go below 50% if you can charge at work.

The software you’re citing for Tesla is gimmicks and cruel jokes. Why does someone need a game that only works when your car is parked and the screen faces the driver? When would someone use this? And even if you find the situation where you want to play a game in parked car, why would chose this rather than any of the games on your phone?

Tesla navigation last time I checked was Google Maps, but not Google turn-by-turn. That's odd. When I test drove a Model S, the salesman pitched some unknown streaming service as “like Pandora”. I’m sorry, but what? The car doesn’t even come with Android or Apple CarPlay.

I’ve used CarPlay, it’s heads and shoulders above any OEM infotainment system I’ve ever used. It’s so good, it’s a requirement for my next car. Assuming AndroidPlay (or whatever it's called) is just as good, why would anyone want anything else?

[0] Yes this is four years ago, and commutes have lengthened, but most articles I found expressed commute is minutes, not miles. Congestion and distance increase commute times. https://www.answerfinancial.com/insurance-center/which-state...

Re: Hertz orders 100k Teslas

#485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla’s stock price is confusing if you compare them to a car company. But they are not just a car company. They are also a car manufacturing supply chain, having brought much of their component production in house. They are also an energy company, both generation and storage, but also distribution, like gas stations. Think Exxon, BP, Chevron, ARCO, etc. They are probably a few other things, but this is the mystery o…

Every car manufacturer is a supply chain and and owns their own component production. Ford owns Motorcraft. General Motors owns AC Delco. Tesla doesn't have nearly the size of the distribution network of any of the oil companies. The fact is Tesla was trading at 1000x historic earnings, and 161x future earnings, or to put it another way, 10x any other car manufacturer, and this this was before this deal. [0] This sim…

I also question the quality and flexibility of the supply chain Tesla has. During the start of COVID, Tesla GM and Ford said they'll manufacturer ventilators. 2 out of 3 reconfigured their assembly lines to mass produce ventillators. One bought CPAP machines from China that hospitals had no use for.

Re: Hertz orders 100k Teslas

#486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but plugin electrics are already cheap enough. They're just not made by Tesla. Nissan Leaf $28,375 Mazda MX-30 $34,645 Hyundai Ioniq $34,650 https://www.cars.com/articles/here-are-the-11-cheapest-elect...

They don't seem equivalent: 1. Nissan Leaf $28,375 - 150 Mile range for this price. (It is not advisable to drive this car long distances because the battery overheats and will reduce charging) 2. Mazda MX-30 $34,645 - ~100 mile range (ideal conditions) 3. Hyundai Ioniq $34,650 - 170 miles Model 3 starts at 262 Miles and has the superchargers + most of the stuff Tesla is known for included (sentry mode, good UI softw…

The 2022 Chevrolet Bolt has a range of 259 miles and starts at $31,995. It has the "Super Cruise" that Consumer Reports rates as the #1 Assisted Driver tech.

Tesla MSRP Price is $42k...

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a35494747/2022-chevrolet-b...

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-safety/cadillac-super-cr...

Re: Hertz orders 100k Teslas

#487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla needs to execute, and I’m not sure that’s their strong suit. Sure they identified that it was finally time for the electric car, and made an electric car that wasn’t ugly as sin (gdiaf CitiCar and EV-1), but theiyre plagued with manufacturing delays and poor workmanship. The other manufacturers simply are better at putting quality cars out the door. Sure they were late to the game, and but it’s not a foregone c…

Well, the fog of 'war' is thick right now. I've chosen to place my capital and belief with Karpathy and Elon. Tesla seems like to best multivariate bet and it's priced like a winner in that respect. With regards to execution, I don't think anyone has done a better job of scaling physical production faster than Tesla? And you don't have to like Elon but he sure does know a thing or two about this. I've heard both the…

> With regards to execution, I don't think anyone has done a better job of scaling physical production faster than Tesla? And you don't have to like Elon but he sure does know a thing or two about this.

Does he though? Elon's hand can be traced directly to production and safety issues. Lest we forget his hubris in trying to do final assembly with robots, a task that was tried and dismissed by multiple "legacy" manufacturers, and directly resulted in defects and manufacturing slow downs. He's not even technically a founder of Tesla. He partially financed the A round, and then started telling everyone he founded the company. Even SpaceX widely seen as Gwynne Shotwell's baby. I will say that he he's enough money and a fan base to make a bunch of meme stocks. That's something.

As far as driving a Tesla, I have. I test drove a Model S several years ago. I thought the regenerative braking was weird, but something I would have to get used to. I liked the exterior of the Model S, but I did not like the interior. I thought it was ugly and empty (a personal preference), and the infotainment system a cruel joke that not only lacked features common on cheaper cars (CarPlay), but was filled with knockoffs (Slacker instead of Spotify or Pandora, and Google Maps without Google turn-by-turn in particular) and pointless gimmicks (Paint). Even with their v10 update that brought Spotify to the US (finally a win), also brought a bunch of video streaming services that only work when the car is in park. (Why bother? Just use your phone.)

I think you should compare a Model S to a Porsche Taycan. They're comparably priced plugin electrics, but the Porsche is well... a Porsche, a finely made automobile with attention to detail. A Model S is slapdashed together; but you're right, Tesla buyers don't seem to care. Also, for some reason Tesla owners purchase their cars instead of leasing them, the only electric car owners to do so. I can't explain either of these facts.

Re: Hertz orders 100k Teslas

#488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh yes! We won't care about the middle east, so none of that bizarre cowtowing to the Saudi king that the US Presidents always do (I think largely to get on the post-term massive slush money that flows from the Saudis to former presidents, which I have no direct knowledge up, but seems obvious) The Navy will lose a huge reason for its existence: securing the seas for supertankers. There are so many countries we won't…

I think you are too optimistic about Israel. These other countries can be dropped easily but Israel is a huge liability that I don't know how the US will get rid of. I do feel confident that the winds are starting to fly against them slowly but I don't have my hopes up. It will likely be a generational shift that finally does them in but IDK. What do you think?

If the US drops Israel someone else will pick them up (like Russia or China or India). The country is developed, produces tons of IP, and is armed to the teeth (and has nuclear weapons).

But this is lala-land thinking. As long as the United States remains on the UN Security Council (which is equivalent to saying as long as the UN continues to exist in any practical form), both Taiwan and Israel will remain our client states.

Re: Hertz orders 100k Teslas

#489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are too optimistic about Israel. These other countries can be dropped easily but Israel is a huge liability that I don't know how the US will get rid of. I do feel confident that the winds are starting to fly against them slowly but I don't have my hopes up. It will likely be a generational shift that finally does them in but IDK. What do you think?

If the US drops Israel someone else will pick them up (like Russia or China or India). The country is developed, produces tons of IP, and is armed to the teeth (and has nuclear weapons). But this is lala-land thinking. As long as the United States remains on the UN Security Council (which is equivalent to saying as long as the UN continues to exist in any practical form), both Taiwan and Israel will remain our client…

Israel is not a US client. The directive influence is the opposite of the direction that it would be were that the case, and the reason for that is exactly the thinking you articulate: “If the US drops Israel someone else will pick them up”.

Re: Hertz orders 100k Teslas

#490
post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a good proxy for comparing demand and sales between Tesla and, say, GM. GM has a network of franchisees and Tesla doesn't, because Tesla wants the profits (sales, service, whatever) for themselves, but state laws won't let them own dealerships. So, if you want to compare GM and Tesla's market caps, you need to lump the appropriate fraction of GM's franchisees' market caps in with GM's in order to make them c…

I've already addressed sales. It was trading at 161x future earnings before this deal. That's an insane multiple. As far as summing up dealerships, let's go! Tesla has 438 stores worldwide . Toyota has 1500 dealerships in the United States alone. GM? 4500 in the United States. Do you honestly think that if we summed up all the Toyota dealerships in the world, it would be worth $750 billion? I don't, but that's how mu…

Agreed about 161 years, though I'm not sure how you can say "161x future earnings"; we don't know what the future earnings are, because they're in the future. I presume you mean "161x current [annual] earnings".

Generally I'd expect service and repairs to be of the same order of magnitude as sales, because if you have to spend $5000 a year to service and repair a $20000 car, you'll probably junk it and buy a new car that breaks down less, while if it costs you $500 a year to keep it going you'll probably either keep it running or sell it as a used car. One revenue stream might be two or three times bigger than the other, of course, and the profit margins might differ, and the dealerships don't capture all the service and repair.

I'm not sure what the number of dealerships tells us about the relative earnings potential. B. Dalton had more dealerships than Amazon ten years ago. (Or do we count B. Dalton and Waldenbooks as "dealerships of Hachette and Penguin Random House"?)

We can probably do a reasonable Fermi estimate of total dealership profits, though; 1.3 million car salespeople in the US probably means about US$60 billion in car sales commissions per year, which is about US$250 billion in car sales per year and something like US$25 billion in dealership profits; at a reasonable P/E of 30 years, the capital stock of US auto dealers would be worth about US$750 billion in total. https://policyadvice.net/insurance/insights/us-auto-sales-st... says the number of new cars sold in the US is 17 million a year, which suggests that these figures are in the ballpark, since it would mean that the average car cost US$14700, which seems maybe a little low for the US but not absurd. However, used cars are an additional 40 million a year, so maybe US$1.5 trillion for the capital stock of US auto dealers. Adding in whatever they make on sales and service, say US$3 trillion.

The worldwide number is 74 million new cars per year, 4.4 times the US number, so if we just multiply the US number by 3 (probably the average car in the US costs more), we get US$6 trillion for the value of hypothetical worldwide car dealership capital stock.

So, yeah, it does seem plausible that all the Toyota dealerships in the world would be worth US$750 billion, with similar numbers for GM, Fiat, etc.

Another thing, though, is that Tesla's vertical integration goes both directions, and you're not counting companies like American Axle & Manufacturing, Mold Masters Co., Grand Traverse Plastics, and Bosch as part of GM's market cap either.

So, I think buying TSLA at a P/E of 161 years is a pretty daring bet, and there's a significant chance it won't pay off. But I don't think the comparison to other car companies makes it look nearly as crazy as you make it sound, even if TSLA doesn't end up running our power grid on its batteries.

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