Live data from Hacker News

The slab and the permacomputer

society.robinsloan.com

11–20 of 29 posts

Re: The slab and the permacomputer

#11
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"... by individuals and small communities" almost invariably means "by experienced developers who want a playground." Slab vs cloud is a non-issue. The real issue is technocracy vs humanity. Currently we have no human computing of any kind. Non-experts have two choices: being monitored in as many different ways as is practical in order to be carpet-bombed with targeted ads and (increasingly) fake news. Or being force…

I see your point, but I have some half-formed doubts. I apologize for a possibly incoherent reply. > The independent dev community could change this, but it seems permanently attached to the wrong end of the telescope, looking at computing from the comfort of its tool- and toy-making treadmill. In defense of the tool makers: the reason corporate IT can cater to regular users so well is because they can throw a lot of…

> Again, I believe most of the biggest innovations, the ones helping everyone, start with engineers scratching their own itch. To the extent it's becoming harder, all users lose out.

I really disagree. I think engineers scratching their own itch leading down to trickle-down tooling is what a lot of independent devs _like to believe_, but that it's motivated mostly by self-importance. I think the utter failure of the FOSS desktop is proof that devs are motivated to work on things they find fun and that these things do _not_ necessarily translate to things that general users want to use.

> Even in the startup world, a common advice is to scratch your own itch - it often leads to something that's widely useful.

I think that's bad advice. That's the _kind_ of advice that leads to things like the hundreds of now-dead clothes washing startups or valet parking startups. And while endless VC rounds blunt this, at least startups have some form of market pressure to have people use their software.

> In defense of the "independent dev community": perhaps we care a little bit too much about ordinary users?

Not really. Software devs are the last set of STEM-engineers that still insist on understanding _everything_ and holding entire systems in their heads. Civil Engineers don't start by considering the subatomic forces that hold their materials together; automotive engineers don't understand every aspect of the software and combustion reaction that goes into their designs. Most engineers accept abstraction as a cost for building useful things.

> The way I see it, most modern software is dumbed down, lowest-common-denominator toys, whose sole purpose is to sell well and/or sell their users out.

"Sell well" is just a euphemism for "software that others use". Money is just the easiest metric to calculate for software being bought and sold, but metrics like "downloads per month" are just as impactful.

Just like you didn't buy a new car and then spend days learning about how it works, most users of software don't want to either. That's not to say that there isn't a robust scene of modifying cars or building hobby cars, but that most people who drive cars for utility purposes don't care to pierce the abstraction veil of an automatic transmission, a brake pedal, and power steering. Most software users just want software that gets out of their way or enables to connect with others in novel ways. They don't care about how much energy their software uses (as long as it's affordable) or how "simple" it is or whether it uses Unix sockets or DBus or something.

Re: The slab and the permacomputer

#13
Seems to me most people don't actually need a "world computer" but what they do need is access to their computers from anywhere in the world. If you have good bandwidth to those computers that's possible today.

Re: The slab and the permacomputer

#14
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see your point, but I have some half-formed doubts. I apologize for a possibly incoherent reply. > The independent dev community could change this, but it seems permanently attached to the wrong end of the telescope, looking at computing from the comfort of its tool- and toy-making treadmill. In defense of the tool makers: the reason corporate IT can cater to regular users so well is because they can throw a lot of…

> Again, I believe most of the biggest innovations, the ones helping everyone, start with engineers scratching their own itch. To the extent it's becoming harder, all users lose out. I really disagree. I think engineers scratching their own itch leading down to trickle-down tooling is what a lot of independent devs _like to believe_, but that it's motivated mostly by self-importance. I think the utter failure of the…

> I really disagree. I think engineers scratching their own itch leading down to trickle-down tooling is what a lot of independent devs _like to believe_, but that it's motivated mostly by self-importance. I think the utter failure of the FOSS desktop is proof that devs are motivated to work on things they find fun and that these things do _not_ necessarily translate to things that general users want to use.

I'm not a desktop environment developer, but I can't imagine it's especially fun compared to other projects. The bigger projects (Gnome, KDE, etc) are definitely being run for instrumentalist reasons, and are supported to quite a degree by companies with a business interest in having them.

Thinking about this reminded me of a highly insightful comment by user Floegipoky[0]:

> By mimicking the Apple and Microsoft tactic of constructing vast monolithic environments and applications, you have all unwittingly been playing to their strengths, not yours. Such enormous proprietary companies can afford such brute-force strategies because they have vast financial and manpower resources to draw on.

> Projects like Gnome and Open Office become like our banking industries: vast, baroque, impossible to regulate effectively, and cripplingly expensive to maintain.

Doesn't exactly sound fun — and whose itch is being scratched by working on these?

> the Linux desktop world (and even the kernel world beneath it) has completely and utterly forgotten its roots. Unix Philosophy isn't merely a neat marketing phrase: it describes a very specific way to construct large, complex systems. Not by erecting vast imposing monoliths, ego-gratifying as that may be, but by assembling a rich ecosystem of small, simple, plug-n-play components that can be linked together in whatever arrangement best suits a given problem.

[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13573373

Re: The slab and the permacomputer

#15
Maybe this exists, but what would a non-blockchain "distributed cloud" look like? Bittorrent, but for compute instead of just storage/transfer. You might need some kind of central authority orchestrating it all, almost certainly to manage payments at least. I'm just wondering how the world's consumer computers stand up against megacorp data-centers when you mash them all together. Certainly the "edge" could be even closer to the end user than data centers would allow.

I'm imagining an individual or org could download a daemon, start it up on a spare machine (or a workstation with spare cycles!) and just get paid over time as people run lambdas/workers on their hardware. Of course you'd need some really intense sandboxing, but that seems like it could be solvable. Or maybe it isn't, and that's the reason this doesn't exist.

Re: The slab and the permacomputer

#16

Permacomputing continues to be a baffling concept for me for a variety of reasons. The goals of permacomputing seem ill-defined and highly specific to the community developing these ideas. This would be fine, but these goals are created with sweeping manifesto-like moral and ethical verbiage. To bring it back to this article: > You already know the answers! They’d use less power; they’d be hardy against the elements…

Don't know why you get downvoted, but I agree will all your points. Maybe instead of "low power" they mean a sustainable energy source so it's perma-nent. Also since data storage is constantly moving to be more volatile, complex to decode and distributed in space, we might want to start encoding our knowledge as the ancient civilizations did, in stone, but with some easy to decode language (think Voyager probe). That would be permastorage. Imagine a future civilization unearthing the secrets to reach microplatics pollution, or nuclear annihilation.. er well, not sure about that.

Re: The slab and the permacomputer

#17
post #16

Permacomputing continues to be a baffling concept for me for a variety of reasons. The goals of permacomputing seem ill-defined and highly specific to the community developing these ideas. This would be fine, but these goals are created with sweeping manifesto-like moral and ethical verbiage. To bring it back to this article: > You already know the answers! They’d use less power; they’d be hardy against the elements…

Don't know why you get downvoted, but I agree will all your points. Maybe instead of "low power" they mean a sustainable energy source so it's perma-nent. Also since data storage is constantly moving to be more volatile, complex to decode and distributed in space, we might want to start encoding our knowledge as the ancient civilizations did, in stone, but with some easy to decode language (think Voyager probe). That…

> Maybe instead of "low power" they mean a sustainable energy source so it's perma-nent.

Now _that_ would be very cool! I can imagine a computing device driven by solar or wind. But when it comes to solar or wind, the important part isn't energy usage as much as it is dealing with inconsistent energy output. Here we'd want to design computers for situations with varying amounts of available power. But that's much more nuanced than "low power".

> Also since data storage is constantly moving to be more volatile, complex to decode and distributed in space, we might want to start encoding our knowledge as the ancient civilizations did, in stone, but with some easy to decode language (think Voyager probe). That would be permastorage.

That too would be very cool. Not sure if you've read over VPRI's paper on digital Cuneiform Tablets [1] but it's a great read in that vein.

[1]: http://www.vpri.org/pdf/tr2015004_cuneiform.pdf

Re: The slab and the permacomputer

#18

Maybe this exists, but what would a non-blockchain "distributed cloud" look like? Bittorrent, but for compute instead of just storage/transfer. You might need some kind of central authority orchestrating it all, almost certainly to manage payments at least. I'm just wondering how the world's consumer computers stand up against megacorp data-centers when you mash them all together. Certainly the "edge" could be even c…

[deleted]

Re: The slab and the permacomputer

#19

Great article. I see this trend too: the systems powering the modern world are increasingly featureful, complicated, centralised into a few hands, and this will likely continue. I'm a keen developer and user in this world, and recognize the vast users this world provides for. At the same time, I appreciate a back-to-basics approach that emphasizes systems that can be understood and controlled by individuals and small…

"... by individuals and small communities" almost invariably means "by experienced developers who want a playground." Slab vs cloud is a non-issue. The real issue is technocracy vs humanity. Currently we have no human computing of any kind. Non-experts have two choices: being monitored in as many different ways as is practical in order to be carpet-bombed with targeted ads and (increasingly) fake news. Or being force…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN