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Former Facebook staffers launch Integrity Institute

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Re: Former Facebook staffers launch Integrity Institute

#71

Post by [deleted] »

strulovich wrote: post #28
tedivm wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The person created spyware for profit- something that clearly lacks of integrity. The fact that this is even a question shows why no one who worked at Facebook should be in charge of any integrity project.

So it’s a linguistic issue. You’re lumping integrity as “do people abuse our system” with “does person A follow the same morals as me”. Specifically, looks like your morals are that products that are free in exchange for anonymously analyzing your data are immoral. (Remember: Onavo gave free VPN to users) It’s a reasonable position to take, but it’s unclear it’s necessarily true and that everyone who doesn’t agree wi…

[deleted]

Re: Former Facebook staffers launch Integrity Institute

#72

Post by [deleted] »

dogman144 wrote: post #68
sayhar wrote: post #2

Oh hi! That’s me! (And a bunch of other folks). Happy to answer any questions. I also really like this founders note that we wrote. It’s in our own words, etc: https://integrityinstitute.org/founders-letter We are recruiting new members! If you work on integrity / trust and safety / antispam / content quality / etc, let’s talk.

Many PMs and engineers and laymen knew FB was a rotten product for a long time. I also assume a lot of people at this institute didn’t take the Alex Stamos (ex, short term FB CISO) U-turn either. So… How is this effort not a virtue signaling by people that made their fortune on the back of this generation’s cigarettes, and now hoping to get traction on being listened to for fixing the mess they created?

[deleted]

Re: Former Facebook staffers launch Integrity Institute

#73

Post by kwertyoowiyop »

akomtu wrote: post #69
liuliu wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook Integrity team is about user's integrity of not abusing Facebook services. It doesn't manage Facebook's integrity towards its users. There are overlaps (for example, some people may abuse the system by trick people to like a piece of content to promote misinformation). But the focus is about protecting Facebook services, not the user. Certainly not user's privacy in the realm of how Facebook uses it (how oth…

Related note: the famous "we value our users" means "we increase the lifetime value of our users" and that's not a snarky speculation.

They apparently value users at around $1,500/year.

Re: Former Facebook staffers launch Integrity Institute

#75

Post by spywaregorilla »

strulovich wrote: post #28
tedivm wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The person created spyware for profit- something that clearly lacks of integrity. The fact that this is even a question shows why no one who worked at Facebook should be in charge of any integrity project.

So it’s a linguistic issue. You’re lumping integrity as “do people abuse our system” with “does person A follow the same morals as me”. Specifically, looks like your morals are that products that are free in exchange for anonymously analyzing your data are immoral. (Remember: Onavo gave free VPN to users) It’s a reasonable position to take, but it’s unclear it’s necessarily true and that everyone who doesn’t agree wi…

If there's any linguistics problems here, it's that the head of integrity's role is not to promote integrity, but rather to be manage user fraud from what I can see.

Re: Former Facebook staffers launch Integrity Institute

#76

Post by 1vuio0pswjnm7 »

strulovich wrote: post #23
commoner wrote: post #13

A reminder that Facebook's VP of integrity (Guy Rosen)[1] co-founded the spyware company, Onavo, that Facebook acquired. Onavo made a VPN that collected user activity and delivered it to Facebook.[2] [1] First temporary ( https://gizmodo.com/facebook-exec-gets-new-title-as-vp-of-in... ), then long-term ( https://www.theverge.com/2021/10/17/22731214/facebook-disput... ) [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onavo

I see this mentioned on multiple threads. What is the accusation here? (FB employee, opinions are my own)

This comment demonstrates FB's lack of self-awareness.

From the outside, people see poor judgment and lack of basic moral fiber.

From the inside, people see their own behaviour and decision-making as normal.

Thus, we get a question like this: "I do not understand. What is the accusation?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onavo

One can imagine their thought process is something like: "If it is not illegal, then what is the problem?" This is not how normal people think.

It is like an inability to grasp the moral of the Trojan Horse. Facebook's response when accused of deceptive practices was "We gave users a beautiful wooden horse. Users knew exactly what they were getting. We will defend ourselves in court."

Re: Former Facebook staffers launch Integrity Institute

#77

Post by tedivm »

strulovich wrote: post #56
tedivm wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is part of the problem with talking with Facebook engineers. Most of society is against spyware. It's not a controversial topic- spyware is pretty frowned upon. Spying on people does, to most people, show a lack of integrity. So does much of the other actions Facebook has taken and which are now coming out in these leaks. If you bring this up with Facebook engineers it turns into a "linguistic" issue. You're tol…

I’m sorry if my tone is not coming across as I intended. I think there’s plenty of arguments to be made against Facebook’s integrity effort, and plenty of that work happened on Guy Rosen’s shift. But your feedback is not nuanced and seems to be avoiding a lot of the context on purpose. It seems to be about getting people enraged through an implied accusation in your first comment. In reality there’s some things you s…

I'm sorry but you keep trying to act as if Onavo was a high integrity operation but it clearly wasn't. I'm just quoting from wikipedia here-

* In October 2013, Onavo was acquired by Facebook, which used Onavo's analytics platform to monitor competitors. This influenced Facebook to make various business decisions, including its 2014 acquisition of WhatsApp.

* The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) initiated legal proceedings against Facebook on December 16, 2020, alleging that Facebook engaged in "false, misleading or deceptive conduct" by using personal data collected from Onavo "for its own commercial purposes" contrary to Onavo's privacy-oriented marketing.

* In August 2018, Facebook pulled Onavo Protect from the iOS App Store due to violations of Apple's policy forbidding apps from collecting data on the usage of other apps. (Note: this one even meets your definition of integrity above)

* This led to denouncements of the app by media outlets, who classified Onavo as spyware because it is used by Facebook to monetize usage habits within a privacy-focused environment, and because the app listing did not contain a prominent disclosure of Facebook's ownership.

* On January 29, 2019, TechCrunch published a report detailing "Project Atlas"—an internal market research program employed by Facebook since 2016. It invited users between the ages of 13 and 35 to install the Facebook Research app—allegedly a rebranded version of Onavo Protect—on their device, to collect data on their app usage, web browsing history, web search history, location history, personal messages, photos, videos, emails, and Amazon order history.

So every step of the way Facebook and Onava lied to their users, violated terms of services of the platforms they were user, and to spy on people at an unprecedented level. This system eventually resulted in congressional hearings.

No reasonable person thinks that these are the actions of people with integrity.

Re: Former Facebook staffers launch Integrity Institute

#78

Post by spywaregorilla »

sayhar wrote: post #2

Oh hi! That’s me! (And a bunch of other folks). Happy to answer any questions. I also really like this founders note that we wrote. It’s in our own words, etc: https://integrityinstitute.org/founders-letter We are recruiting new members! If you work on integrity / trust and safety / antispam / content quality / etc, let’s talk.

How do you define integrity in this context. (you, personally)

Re: Former Facebook staffers launch Integrity Institute

#79

Post by spinningslate »

strulovich wrote: post #60
jakelazaroff wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's an easy test: was Onavo (or, for that matter, is Facebook) upfront with users about the data they were collecting and how they were using it? Or did they hide it behind legalese in the terms of service?

I don’t think even Apple passes this test though. (And I do consider Apple to much better privacy wise than other big tech)

that wasn't the question asked.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you're genuinely trying to describe Onavo's value exchange from your perspective.

But it demonstrates the dissonance between a growing proportion of the public and fb. For example:

1. Facebook's use of "Integrity" is duplicitous. I'd wager strongly that the general public would assume the word to have its common-language meaning: that Facebook is operating 'with integrity'. That OP's comment is necessary evidences that the meaning is not as would be expected. To your earlier question, that is the "accusation".

2. "looks like your morals are that products that are free in exchange for anonymously analyzing your data are immoral". This is also duplicitous. It is increasingly clear that the cost of Facebook's products is very much more than "anonymously analyzing your data". Impacting teenage mental health[0] or polarizing political opinion[1] as just two examples.

I suggest you re-read @tedivm's post:

> Most of society is against spyware. It's not a controversial topic- spyware is pretty frowned upon. Spying on people does, to most people, show a lack of integrity. So does much of the other actions Facebook has taken and which are now coming out in these leaks.

Your comments about Onavo might be factually correct, but you're missing the point. The reality of the surveillance economy is slowly seeping into societal consciousness, and it's not landing well. That Google/Apple/whomever also engage in it doesn't legitimise the behaviour.

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/sep/14/facebook-...

[1] https://www.wired.com/story/facebook-vortex-political-polari...

Re: Former Facebook staffers launch Integrity Institute

#80

Post by kwertyoowiyop »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #5
piva00 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not working on integrity but really, really interested in seeing this coming alive. I've had a very deep curiosity about this topic for a couple of years, allegedly Facebook's products might have influenced the elections on my home country (Brazil), which has very directly impacted the quality of life of my family still living there. Looking forward to see what comes out of this and wishing you and the team all the b…

I am not working on integrity (I have a feeling that the integrity offices of many companies have brooms and buckets in them), but I do write software that Serves a constituency that has a very vested interest in the matter, and wish you well. I also have a personal code of ethics, and hold myself to a very high standard of Personal Integrity. In my experience, talking about that in the tech community does not end we…

Corporate departments you do NOT want to be in: Innovation, Ethics, Trust… unless of course it’s corporate doublespeak and the department is doing the exact opposite of what its name implies.
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