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U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

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Re: U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

#61

Post by Mvandenbergh »

bugsy wrote: post #36
Mvandenbergh wrote: post #12

If they'd just generally called for a riot that would be one thing (possibly still illegal), these guys set a particular time and place which is what did them in. Blackshaw at least (because he actually showed up for his planned riot, the other chap didn't) would go to prison if he did this anywhere in the world. Even in the USA with its extremely strong protections for speech, inviting people to meet at a set place…

Hey we're "having a riot" out by the McDonalds on Orangethorpe Avenue in Anaheim tomorrow at 4pm. Hope you can make it, assuming free speech still exists in the US, unlike the british police state we fought to free ourselves from. PS come and get me coppers. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=laugh%20riot

Free speech does not include planning a riot, any more than it does threatening to kill someone. This is one of the few exceptions to otherwise very strong rights to say whatever you want.

Re: U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

#62

Post by Gupie »

shazamjad wrote: post #54
Daniel_Newby wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having witnessed first hand the devastation and destruction in Hackney - most small business owners who lost pretty much their whole lively hoods would state that the sentences being handed out aren't enough - and I whole heartedly agree. How many of those small businessmen shook their heads but did nothing over happy slappers and countless other creeping failures of the rule of law? Civilizations don't fall because…

Couldn't agree more - in fact a group actually did stand up to them: http://hackneycitizen.co.uk/2011/08/09/turkish-shopkeepers-s... It's only recently in the UK that the law now favours the right to defend yourself and your property; before there was a perception of criminals having more rights having broken into your home than you ever did.

Has there been a change to the law? Can you give a reference please. I thought UK law has always allowed reasonable force to be used in defending your property..

Re: U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

#63

Post by msutherl »

shazamjad wrote: post #48
bugsy wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We also should arrest all the people in Tunisia, Egypt and Libya who rioted in their countries this year as well. Disorder must not be tolerated! Government power above all else! Bow before your gods, peasants!

There's rioting for the sake of a rebellion, hopefully leading to a revolution. Then there's rioting for the sake of looting and causing damage, nothing more.

How do you know the they were rioting for the sake of looting and causing damage and not as protest?

Re: U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

#64

Post by bugsy »

Mvandenbergh wrote: post #61
bugsy wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey we're "having a riot" out by the McDonalds on Orangethorpe Avenue in Anaheim tomorrow at 4pm. Hope you can make it, assuming free speech still exists in the US, unlike the british police state we fought to free ourselves from. PS come and get me coppers. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=laugh%20riot

Free speech does not include planning a riot, any more than it does threatening to kill someone. This is one of the few exceptions to otherwise very strong rights to say whatever you want.

If you decide to come to the riot, could you bring the desert plates? Just a sack of 500 paper ones would be fine.

Famous case from World War I. There was a socialist party guy, Charles Schenck, who thought war was a bunch of BS and the draft was slavery. He printed up 15,000 tracts and passed them out to people. Oliver Wendall Holmes, a fascist if there ever was one, said that criticizing the government was the same thing as "shouting fire in a crowded theatre" and you had no right to to such a thing that might bring about a riot. So they sent Schenck to prison.

That was the wrong decision. As you are wrong here.

The problem with this nonsense is it is provoking people to go from posting gag calls for rioting to realizing the situation is so bad rioting isn't enough. Armed revolution is what is needed. The violent overthrow of the government is inevitable at this point.

Re: U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

#65

Post by bugsy »

abstractbill wrote: post #57
shazamjad wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's rioting for the sake of a rebellion, hopefully leading to a revolution. Then there's rioting for the sake of looting and causing damage, nothing more.

Of course I agree that the UK riots were not the former, but I hope you see the problem with trusting the government to decide which one is which, and giving them special powers to punish people who riot (over and above the criminal acts of destruction that can already be punished under existing laws).

Tunisian riots started with people upset because of the way the police had abused some guy. Same as the UK. EXACT SAME THING. Not different at all. Police abuse provokes rioting that leads to the justified overthrow of the government. Only the ending turned out different.

This was not a dumb pointless soccer riot. It was provoked by the government violating the rights of the people. The people pushed back. Sometimes that turns violent. Sometimes it gets completely out of control. Sometimes it gets so out of control, that in the end the old regime is cast out and a new form of government instituted.

The French Revolution was no different. A bunch of hooligans mindlessly rioting and destroying things over some minor matter they should have just let go. But in the end, the king was dead, him and his wife's heads were cut off and spat upon.

This round the government got the upper hand. The people in the UK are not happy with how things are going. The revolution is not going to be this month, but it has started this month. The nation is already dead, having abused the people too long. Hard to say how much time they have before the final revolt, but it's obvious to this impartial outside observer that revolution is coming and the momentum is strong enough that throwing dissidents and fools in prison will only hasten its inevitable fall.

Re: U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

#66

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Re: U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

#67

Post by Daniel_Newby »

bugsy wrote: post #65
abstractbill wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course I agree that the UK riots were not the former, but I hope you see the problem with trusting the government to decide which one is which, and giving them special powers to punish people who riot (over and above the criminal acts of destruction that can already be punished under existing laws).

Tunisian riots started with people upset because of the way the police had abused some guy. Same as the UK. EXACT SAME THING. Not different at all. Police abuse provokes rioting that leads to the justified overthrow of the government. Only the ending turned out different. This was not a dumb pointless soccer riot. It was provoked by the government violating the rights of the people. The people pushed back. Sometimes…

The French Revolution was no different.

Except for the charismatic, well spoken Robespierre running the Terror as a matter of centrally-planned policy, and systematically purging his political competition within the Revolution by means that would have impressed Stalin and Mao.

The nation is already dead, having abused the people too long. Hard to say how much time they have before the final revolt, but it's obvious to this impartial outside observer that revolution is coming and the momentum is strong enough that throwing dissidents and fools in prison will only hasten its inevitable fall.

This reads like a Robespierre speech praising both the inevitability and the righteousness of the Revolution. Pray that you are wrong, because that sort of revolution leave the nation a smoking ruin.

Re: U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

#68

Post by bugsy »

Daniel_Newby wrote: post #67
bugsy wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tunisian riots started with people upset because of the way the police had abused some guy. Same as the UK. EXACT SAME THING. Not different at all. Police abuse provokes rioting that leads to the justified overthrow of the government. Only the ending turned out different. This was not a dumb pointless soccer riot. It was provoked by the government violating the rights of the people. The people pushed back. Sometimes…

The French Revolution was no different. Except for the charismatic, well spoken Robespierre running the Terror as a matter of centrally-planned policy, and systematically purging his political competition within the Revolution by means that would have impressed Stalin and Mao. The nation is already dead, having abused the people too long. Hard to say how much time they have before the final revolt, but it's obvious t…

Pointing out it's well nigh inevitable at this point due to systematic abuse of and disregard for human rights isn't saying that it is righteous or that the outcome will be good. Most revolutions lead to bad outcomes not good, but most revolutions are also inevitable. The British ubersurveillance police state experiment has gone too far and there are no signs of abating. This is not the only issue, there are others. It's pretty unlikely reform will come in time. It's not a wild pronouncement to note that the revolution has begun, it's just an observation of what is going on.

The day the Rodney King verdict was announced I took part in one of hundreds of peaceful protest marches, which were interrupted by fascist police who tried to round up participants for legally exercising their right to protest. The next day I had to make a delivery in LA and saw the riots. I got out of there as soon as I realized what was going on but I saw enough to know the city was being burned to the ground by a populace outraged over injustice, not a thugs looking for free TVs. I never said "Wow this sucks, look at those undisciplined animals rioting". Instead I said, "Wow, this sucks, look at what happens if you don't value justice in a society."

The sentence of 4 years in prison of this kid for posting on Facebook some nonsense he deleted a couple hours later inviting people to join him at McDonalds for a riot meetup that never happened is not justice. Nor is throwing a mother in prison because her flatmate brought home some looted clothes and she accepted a pair of shorts. That is the reign of terror. It is not justice, it is fascism and extremism at its worst. The people calling for violent and extreme punishment of the protestors are insane and their actions bring the destruction of their failed nation that much closer.

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