Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years • Hacker News Board

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#141

Post by notJim » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 7:32 PM UTC

woah wrote: post #93

notJim wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this. It seems like they should start with python or even java to learn the basics in a relatively straightforward environment, but one that also implements a lot of constructs in a fairly standard way. They also both have well-documented and large standard libraries. I feel like they should spend a bit of time on that, and then switch to JS, which is relevant for so many jobs these days.

Python and Java are probably just as bad as Javascript. I started with Javascript (and self taught) and never had many issues. Javascript is very easy to get running and play around. With Java you will spend a huge amount of time on pointless ceremony that can seem important to a beginner but is really pedantic enforcement of programming preferences from the Java designers (everything is a class for example). With Py…

I agree that Java has a lot of silly boilerplate, but I don't see that as a huge hurdle. Most people will use an IDE that populates it for you. Keep in mind this is for a complete beginner.

Dependency management with either Java or Python is PITA IMO, but my idea would be to avoid dependencies during this initial phase of learning the basics.

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#142

Post by dnautics » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 7:32 PM UTC

RobertRoberts wrote: post #124

ericb wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's the issue. The issue is that the United States provides such a poor safety net for those with health issues that one person's failing health destroys the economic potential of one or more people around them. From a sheer utilitarian perspective, healthcare and safety nets are positive ROI. Imagine the job-producing startups that don't exist because "how do you pay for insurance?"

Can't people choose to refuse medical help? The only reason I see expenses really causing massive debt is if you choose to accept/request medical procedures you can't pay for. While it's morbid to consider the idea of just letting yourself die because you don't want to go into debt, it still is a choice... isn't it?

In a whole lot of cases dying is, whether we like it or not "I/we/We[0] don't want to pay for it anymore". I have the experience of pulling the plug on my dad, not for financial reasons, but because it was very clear that he was going to die anyways and it wasn't worth the emotional energy to keep him around (luckily for us, everyone important had time to say their goodbyes and several annoying people had said their goodbyes too [1]). But it also brought into focus to me that we COULD have spent/forced the system to spend millions of dollars in extraordinary resources to keep him alive.

Medical technology is quite advanced these days. Advanced != free. And there's a thing where the longer you try to prolong someone's life the more progressively expensive it becomes, not just from a "price of care" perspective but an "[externalized] cost of care" perspective. Is it worth X carbon dioxide emissions to keep a person on a "level-III dialysis machine"? Is it worth X acres of rainforest to extract an anticancer drug to keep someone's cancer at bay?

Anyways the political divide, in the US, between the left's clueless utopianism and the right's underhanded support of market-distorting profitmongers, has become so farcical that it's impossible to question if humans should have "a general right to have their life extended" even if there are actual, difficult questions to go around.

[0] capital We, as in "the state"

[1] if you ever have the experience of being by the bedside of someone who is dying (n=2 for me), you will see people who come to visit, and have so much pathos, I suspect largely due to their own hangups about death. To be at your best in your role, you will want to shoo them away as quickly as possible.

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#143

Post by notJim » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 7:33 PM UTC

pharmakom wrote: post #119

notJim wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this. It seems like they should start with python or even java to learn the basics in a relatively straightforward environment, but one that also implements a lot of constructs in a fairly standard way. They also both have well-documented and large standard libraries. I feel like they should spend a bit of time on that, and then switch to JS, which is relevant for so many jobs these days.

It's niche, but I really think F# is the best language to learn first. Not all of F#, but the basics of let, records, tuples, recursion... All that's required is FSI (the interactive interpreter). You can even fetch dependencies from Nuget inside a script, so there's less setup than Node or Python. Elm would probably work too.

Learning these esoteric languages seems like the opposite of what you want to do if your goal is to create employable engineers in as little time as possible.

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#144

Post by ghaff » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 7:34 PM UTC

boringg wrote: post #64

throwaway789257 wrote: post #55

I used to work as a technical recruiter and made several hires out of coding bootcamps (though never from Lambda, which didn't exist at the time). One rule of thumb that we drew after many trials was that, if a candidate coming out of a coding bootcamp did not have a math or science background prior to that bootcamp, they probably would not pass our interview process. That is, people with a certain intellectual found…

I think this is a far assessment. There is a certain level of mathematical aptitude that is essential for being able to be successful at programming. Maybe no in the strict sense of math but in understanding how different structures and concepts are able to relate to each other. However in the strict sense of math, there is a requirement there. I also posit that as bootcamps grew - the quality control and quality of…

>However in the strict sense of math, there is a requirement there.

As someone who tutored first year MBAs at one point...

My observation in general was that most people could at least muddle through most classes, even if they were at best mediocre students. But some subset of students pretty much froze at anything beyond the most basic arithmetic--and then probably only because they had calculators.

Whether you call it aptitude or just a phobia about math, it's there.

I even had project groups of generally strong students. But, still, as soon as things got into more complicated spreadsheets, operations research sort of topics, etc., I usually ended up doing more than my share.

Over the years there have been a number of "My first year at business school" sort of books and the common theme in all of them I think is "It was the math that got me."

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#145

Post by rrix2 » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 7:36 PM UTC

gigatexal wrote: post #71

sam0x17 wrote: post #24

It isn't just Lambda School. I mentor for [insert large coding bootcamp here] and I will say things have been going badly across the board for more than 50% of students. They recently had to cut a lot of staff, and completion rates seem to hover around only 50-60% when you take into account all the students they remove from this calculation when they withdraw for "personal reasons". The employment numbers I don't hav…

I think this sums up the issue with bootcamps: "That said, two of our best junior devs (at Arist YC S20) are Lambda School and Ironclad grads respectively, and neither of them had any background in programming and went right from bootcamp into their current positions. So it definitely works for some people." Some folks thrive in this environment either by natural ability or their learning style and others do not. For…

> Why are they held to this super high standard to teach a difficult subject (computer programming at a high level) to all kinds of learners at all levels?

because this is the standard they advertise to and represent as the capability of their learning platform and their teachers?

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#146

Post by dnautics » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 7:41 PM UTC

notJim wrote: post #81

dnautics wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> one single thing that makes traditional university education succesful is aptitude and drive. Networking, connections, and (external) credentialism?

I honestly think these things are somewhat overrated. If you want to work at Google right out of school, maybe they matter more (particularly credentialism.) But I got my first three tech jobs simply by applying on the website, including one at a well-regarded startup. I don't have a CS degree, didn't have connections, and have never networked in my life. I think what actually mattered was laddering up from a sorta-c…

yeah but you found your way out via tech, which is a very exceptional case (I did the same thing, after spending almost two decades not-in-tech). And anyways GP said:

> one single thing that makes traditional university education successful

Probably is "external credentialism", if there were a single thing. Think of the largest employer in the US (federal government). Credentials are CRAZY important for positions in that org.

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#147

Post by samsolomon » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 7:41 PM UTC

An anecdote from an early bootcamp grad—I graduated from what was then known as The Starter League in 2012. Those I have kept in touch with have all done pretty well. My guess is:

—1/4 are doing what they did before or something similar.

—1/4 became engineers. Some have moved more into management roles.

—2/4 have ended up as PMs, founded a startup or in product design, like myself.

Those were successful gave it 100% of their time and focus. Those who stuck with their day job and tried to do it in the evenings struggled. Also, nobody got a job straight out of bootcamp. Many did after 3 to 6 months of additional work post graduation.

Also, It's interesting to see how things have changed. I paid like $6,000 and we met for class 3 days a week and had hours of pairing work and mentoring outside of class each week for 12 weeks. Now it seems like many of these schools cost at least $20,000 and are much more hands off.

It is amazing that was almost 10 years ago. Time flies.

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#148

Post by devteambravo » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 7:41 PM UTC

Daishiman wrote: post #137

devteambravo wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Students graded students papers. Racism. Unending trolling on Slack. Peers panicking as they realize the program was not "finished". (ie: We were paying beta testers) Being roped in to the web dev program when I didn't want to be a dev (This happened after the UX program was shut down). I could write a book

Move fast and break people.

People who aren't equipped to deal with it, mainly. People who won't fight back. It's disgusting

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#149

Post by beepbooptheory » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 7:42 PM UTC

There are so many of these and they are so flawed, yet again and again its been clear to me that I would have maybe gotten a job at this point if I had just signed up for one and stomached the debt. These days I just wonder how feasible it would be to just... make one up and say that I am a graduate.

I'd just need to mock up a relatively fancy website, some copy, and a good name, and then put on my resume that I am a graduate.

Re: Lambda School leaked documents show poor performance over the last two years

#150

Post by Hermitian909 » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 7:42 PM UTC

ResearchCode wrote: post #74

wly_cdgr wrote: post #47

Having majored in English Literature at an Ivy, let me just say, 30% is a pretty damn good industry placement rate. That said, I'm sure the large majority of those people could have done just as well through self-study and $1-2k worth of MOOCs

While not having majored in medicine myself, I see no reason why CS couldn't have a 99% placement rate too.

Most CS programs do not have 99% placement. There are a few reasons

1. Some people who graduate with CS degrees can't write good code. It is shocking how little you can learn while still graduating.

2. Some college graduates are lack the social/organizational skills for office work

3. Industry has a limited appetite for junior engineers because they're often a net drain on the company for the first 6-12 months and once they become productive can usually get a pay bump by switching jobs.