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Your phone is listening and it's not paranoia (2018)

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Re: Your phone is listening and it's not paranoia (2018)

#61

This article is insane. It basically claims that 1. In 2018 our phones were constantly snitching on our conversations 2. The author verified this experimentally 3. No one can prove it because "it's all encrypted" (since, as we all know, "encryption" makes all forensics impossible) 4. "It's not a big deal" because "it's just an extension of television advertising". With journalists like these, who needs disinformation…

But our phones are listening. We took a long drive today, and my wife and I discussed homosexuality during a significant portion of that drive. Once we got home, my wife started seeing ads for gay bars and events in Sarasota. Neither of us is homosexual, for what that’s worth. This isn’t the first time this has happened. Every so often my wife would suddenly see ads on Facebook about things we’ve just discussed in me…

And did you count the times it did NOT happen? How many times have you talked about a subject, and then no ad related to that subject appeared?

You're noticing the exception to the rule, not the rule.

Re: Your phone is listening and it's not paranoia (2018)

#62
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's not a 3rd party app on my iPhone that accesses the mic that does not show the microphone notification. Zoom shows the recording icon when open in the background. > but you're definitely being very naïve and apologetic toward companies whose entire business models are based around invading privacy at all costs I'm not being naïve and I don't have a facebook for the reasons you mention. My problem is that you'r…

I'm happy your iPhone shows you the notification in all situations, but that's not true for older iOS versions or any version of Android -- aside from maybe v11. So to outright claim that it's not possible just because you, personally, don't experience it, is plain silly. Especially because I, personally, can open any number of apps on my Pixel 3 right now and have them record in the background without a microphone i…

It has been that way for a long time on iOS, I just checked and even a phone call requires the icon. Yet another reason not to trust Android devices.

I am broadly aware of perceptual hashing and its capabilities. Where I feel like you are underestimating the amount of work involved is in performing perceptual hashing without anyone noticing and then matching without anyone noticing. If you take the OPs example of “warheads,” where does the matching happen?

Are you suggesting the social apps are storing the hashes of everything people said and then sending them to servers to match against a list of perceptual hashes? Because then you’re just hashing the audio and sending it, which would be obvious. The other option would require a list of perceptual hashed to be stored on device and a local match performed, this would, again, be obvious because now the social apps would have to store a giant set of hashes locally.

For example, Roku and TVs use the former - they sample your content and send hashes off to a server for matching, this is identifiable in their network data and would, similarly, be identifiable in mobile app network data. Importantly, they’re sampling controlled data and can simply send an image hash every X-seconds, you can’t do that with the “warheads” example, you need to capture and send it all to catch the key words.

Re: Your phone is listening and it's not paranoia (2018)

#63
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm happy your iPhone shows you the notification in all situations, but that's not true for older iOS versions or any version of Android -- aside from maybe v11. So to outright claim that it's not possible just because you, personally, don't experience it, is plain silly. Especially because I, personally, can open any number of apps on my Pixel 3 right now and have them record in the background without a microphone i…

It has been that way for a long time on iOS, I just checked and even a phone call requires the icon. Yet another reason not to trust Android devices. I am broadly aware of perceptual hashing and its capabilities. Where I feel like you are underestimating the amount of work involved is in performing perceptual hashing without anyone noticing and then matching without anyone noticing. If you take the OPs example of “wa…

I hear what you're saying, but I think you're making a few assumptions that aren't necessarily always true or guaranteed.

As to the obviousness of sending hashes to a server, I can think of a dozen ways to make that look like routine API data that's getting synced during a routine polling process. The app is a black box until data hits a networking layer, and it can be made to look like anything they want before it gets there. Would they need to be acting deviously to accomplish this? Of course. Is it in these companies' nature and history to act deviously? You bet it is!

As for the complexity of matching without anyone noticing, I think you may be overestimating the amount of data needed to accomplish this task. They wouldn't need to record full conversations or phrases, or even have any context at all. As you and others have noted, they already have so much contextual information about us, that all it would take is successfully capturing a few words once in a while to really fine-tune they're targeting.

Some very simple audio processing could easily chop up "probable" words based on any number of factors. It could throw out any recording that didn't meet some minimal requirements or seemed noisy. And at that point, you're just sending some strings to the server occasionally, no longer than the typical cookie.

And again, they already brazenly do this with Messenger and WhatsApp and everything else in the world that isn't Signal. So, that it's both technically possible and they have already invested heavily into such systems, makes this all a real possibility. At the very least, it's something that should continue to be investigated and actively monitored for, because even if the biggest of the companies aren't doing it, that doesn't mean nobody is doing it -- or doing it on their behalf.

Re: Your phone is listening and it's not paranoia (2018)

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But our phones are listening. We took a long drive today, and my wife and I discussed homosexuality during a significant portion of that drive. Once we got home, my wife started seeing ads for gay bars and events in Sarasota. Neither of us is homosexual, for what that’s worth. This isn’t the first time this has happened. Every so often my wife would suddenly see ads on Facebook about things we’ve just discussed in me…

Agreed. Similar speech-to-ad conversions have been happening for years now, and they are definitely not coincidences or confirmation bias.

Sar…sarcasm?

Re: Your phone is listening and it's not paranoia (2018)

#65
post #17
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't buy it. I have multiple times been served articles on my Google news feed about specific topics (e.g. dishwasher efficiency) that are orthogonal from my typical interests and that I had only ever discussed offline and never electronically in any form. I can think of no plausible explanation for this aside from Google obtaining audio that is ambiently gathered by my phone and feeding that back into their artic…

How do you know that your conversation partner did not look up dishwashers after your conversation? Or that there was not a trending YouTube video about dishwashers around the same time that prompted the conversation?

In my case, I alone use my devices--nobody else uses my phone or computer, and no other devices are linked to my Google account. As to trending videos, I don't think I can fairly dismiss that conclusively, but all I can say is that it seems like a stretch and that an article about dishwasher efficiency stuck out like a sore thumb against my other news feed recommendations.

Re: Your phone is listening and it's not paranoia (2018)

#66

This article is insane. It basically claims that 1. In 2018 our phones were constantly snitching on our conversations 2. The author verified this experimentally 3. No one can prove it because "it's all encrypted" (since, as we all know, "encryption" makes all forensics impossible) 4. "It's not a big deal" because "it's just an extension of television advertising". With journalists like these, who needs disinformation…

But our phones are listening. We took a long drive today, and my wife and I discussed homosexuality during a significant portion of that drive. Once we got home, my wife started seeing ads for gay bars and events in Sarasota. Neither of us is homosexual, for what that’s worth. This isn’t the first time this has happened. Every so often my wife would suddenly see ads on Facebook about things we’ve just discussed in me…

I usually don't believe in this stuff and think it's coincidence, but it does happen very often.

One thing that happened in my case, I think I was discussing with someone at a table-tennis club about someone playing squash and he showed me a livestream of that guy playing squash. When I got home I started seeing ads for places to play squash even though I never searched for it on my phone, but this is what I think happened: my phone and his were on the same network, so someone the ad-network associated my device with the "squash" keyword because another device on the same network searched for it.

I think this is usually what happens when you "discuss" with someone, that person or someone else in your proximity might search online for that thing and your device will be indirectly associated with that search.

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