The fatiguing effects of camera use in virtual meetings • Hacker News Board

Re: The fatiguing effects of camera use in virtual meetings

#121

Post by 2wrist » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 11:20 AM UTC

matsemann wrote: post #27

To make a different point than all the camera naysayers so far: I I'd be WFH for two years during covid, and everyone had their cameras off, I'd go crazy. Not seeing a face for months, being stressed about the other party in a meeting not even paying attention, just speaking into a void etc.

Yes, very true. Having the camera off also means that we miss out on lots of non-verbal cues. I can't tell you the amount of difficult meetings I have had where people are edgy when the camera is off. With it on there is often a more relaxed vibe as people don't get the wrong end of the stick as much.

Re: The fatiguing effects of camera use in virtual meetings

#122

Post by BlargMcLarg » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 11:22 AM UTC

fartcannon wrote: post #36

lucumo wrote: post #25

> following a day of virtual meetings I've done full days of real meetings. Those were exhausting and very draining. I'm surprised that anybody would expect anything different from virtual meetings. I have noticed that it's harder to feel people as fully human when they're little 2D movies. Even moreso when they're disembodied voices. It's less so when I've met the people IRL. I'm guessing I can then link their image…

Like those who can't touch type now, being exhausted by video calls may eventually be the exception. I expect to see a generational gap here. The twitch streaming, discord VC generation are not going to have the problems you're describing with video calls.

I'd argue against Twitch since these are more consumer-supplier. If anything, that'd prove the point of having only the primary speaker be visible while the remainder stays largely quiet or asks questions Q&A style.

On the flipside I could argue the situation is more akin to playing a multiplayer game over VC, at least for meetings that aren't "let's stare at cameras for (half) an hour". Your virtual space is limited, so audio becomes a more favorable channel and cues on the visual side need to be a lot stronger than wishy-washy human cues to be effective (e.g. explosive sticker emotes, popup text).

I'm sure anyone who has an idea can compare this scenario to your average "look at my screen" video call.

Re: The fatiguing effects of camera use in virtual meetings

#123

Post by andrewzah » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 11:22 AM UTC

jacobmischka wrote: post #43

matsemann wrote: post #27

To make a different point than all the camera naysayers so far: I I'd be WFH for two years during covid, and everyone had their cameras off, I'd go crazy. Not seeing a face for months, being stressed about the other party in a meeting not even paying attention, just speaking into a void etc.

It's extremely rude in my opinion when people simply don't turn their cameras on in virtual meetings. Unfortunately, no one at my workplace except me does.

IMHO it’s rude to demand cameras always be on. You can get your social fix elsewhere.

For my company we’ve used zoom for the last 3 years, and never turn on our cameras unless there’s a specific reason.

Re: The fatiguing effects of camera use in virtual meetings

#124

Post by diffeomorphism » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 11:23 AM UTC

jacobmischka wrote: post #43

matsemann wrote: post #27

To make a different point than all the camera naysayers so far: I I'd be WFH for two years during covid, and everyone had their cameras off, I'd go crazy. Not seeing a face for months, being stressed about the other party in a meeting not even paying attention, just speaking into a void etc.

It's extremely rude in my opinion when people simply don't turn their cameras on in virtual meetings. Unfortunately, no one at my workplace except me does.

> It's extremely rude in my opinion

> no one at my workplace except me

That tells you your opinion is wrong. It is not rude at all and nobody but you minds. Just say "I would prefer if" instead of claiming that something "is rude".

Re: The fatiguing effects of camera use in virtual meetings

#125

Post by andrewzah » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 11:27 AM UTC

It’s interesting how people here are adamant that camera usage [all the time] is important or necessary.

It isn’t. It's an opinion, and in my opinion, a bad one that isn't justified by anything.

At my company we only use them if necessary, and I’ve been with them for over 3 years working remotely. We get work done quite well.

edit: update wording for clarity

Re: The fatiguing effects of camera use in virtual meetings

#126

Post by Buttons840 » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 11:28 AM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #73

We are pretty small and have a 'camera on' policy for our one one hour meeting on Friday every week, and if you don't want to have your camera on you are asked not to participate, and an eight hour interview day every Tuesday. The only exception is for observers present during the meeting (for instance: customer representatives that do not have anything to contribute but are just there to listen and make their own no…

> If you can't be bothered to have your camera on in meetings then you probably shouldn't be in that meeting in the first place.

It seems pretty common for a bystander to make a few key decisions and rare points in a meeting, and yes, their time is valuable, but not as valuable as the 6 other people in the meeting.

Think product owner and developers. Product owner isn't involved while developers dive into the weeds, but an occasional clarification from the product owner saves everyone time. And the product owner can hardly consider their own time more valuable than the collective time of 6 developers who are creating the actual deliverable.

Re: The fatiguing effects of camera use in virtual meetings

#127

Post by MereInterest » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 11:29 AM UTC

jacobmischka wrote: post #43

matsemann wrote: post #27

To make a different point than all the camera naysayers so far: I I'd be WFH for two years during covid, and everyone had their cameras off, I'd go crazy. Not seeing a face for months, being stressed about the other party in a meeting not even paying attention, just speaking into a void etc.

It's extremely rude in my opinion when people simply don't turn their cameras on in virtual meetings. Unfortunately, no one at my workplace except me does.

I think it very much depends on the circumstances, just like most social rules. If somebody is in an office space, then it can make sense to have everybody on camera as the default. On the other hand, if people are working from spaces that were never intended as working space, then it would be rude to assume that they should give a view into their private space.

For the first ~12 months of the pandemic, I was working from home, using my desk in the living room because there wasn't a good spot for it anywhere else. Having my camera on would have meant having my living room in full view, often including my partner on the couch in the background. While background detection/subtraction does exist, it isn't perfect, and so that would be an intrusive view into our private area.

I've since moved to a different location, with a room to be a dedicated home office. Here, it wouldn't impose on private space to turn on the camera, because that was part of the intent behind that room. However, you as the person on the other end of the call cannot know which situation somebody is in, and so it would be rude to insist on video beyond a polite request.

Re: The fatiguing effects of camera use in virtual meetings

#128

Post by Buttons840 » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 11:35 AM UTC

macintux wrote: post #22

boglurker wrote: post #8

I haven't turned my camera on in meetings for over 8 months, I don't think anyone really cares that much, and I find some people like it because they feel less pressure to keep their own cameras on as a result. That's been my experience at least, I'm sure some people have bosses that require it for whatever reason which might make that not an option for everyone.

Based on a discussion here several months ago, it seems to vary by workplace. Some companies rarely use cameras, some use them all the time. Very grateful I work for the former.

The ability to have someone instantly available, without requiring 100% of their attention, is useful. I have no problem with some people multitasking in meetings, and I don't judge people if they say "sorry, I wasn't paying attention, can you repeat that". I've learned to ask better questions that people can answer even if they weren't paying attention.

Re: The fatiguing effects of camera use in virtual meetings

#129

Post by mkl » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 11:36 AM UTC

piva00 wrote: post #47

jacobmischka wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's extremely rude in my opinion when people simply don't turn their cameras on in virtual meetings. Unfortunately, no one at my workplace except me does.

Rude? Have you considered the other side? I'm extremely fatigued by having the camera on, I feel surveilled and every movement I do in front of it is calculated by my unconscious mind. It takes a real toll on my productivity having to have the camera on for a string of meetings. I feel it's extremely rude to dismiss others' experiences with the damn camera on for a virtual meeting. What is up that you need someone el…

> I feel surveilled and every movement I do in front of it is calculated by my unconscious mind

What do you do in in-person meetings? Or supermarket visits etc.? Everything you do is way more visible in those, and I've never heard anyone complain about being surveilled in person.

Re: The fatiguing effects of camera use in virtual meetings

#130

Post by incrudible » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 11:40 AM UTC

Another benefit of just keeping cameras off is that it reduces the impact of lookism, which is exacerbated by camera distortion and unfavorable lighting.

Of course, this puts stronger emphasis on audible cues. You may not realize it, but people can hear you smile. This is a bit anecdotal: People on the ASD spectrum may perform better on just auditory stimuli versus audio-visual integration.

There's certainly a trade-off here, some people may strongly prefer having cameras on or off, but I feel that keeping cameras on is mostly just a default that is followed. Turning cameras off should at least be attempted.