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WhatsApp scaled to 1B users with only 50 engineers

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Re: WhatsApp scaled to 1B users with only 50 engineers

#31

Post by tdrdt »

johnfn wrote: post #23
tdrdt wrote: post #16

"The simpler product makes it much easier to maintain and scale." This is good news for the developers, the product owners and the customers. I still can't understand why today people choose a (Javascript) stack of build systems, ton of dependencies, and all kinds of exotic tech that is the latest and most hyped. As a developer you need to support this in the future. It might be nice to build today but it will be a n…

> Personally I want to build systems. Sure. And so do I. Specifically, I don't want to re build systems that have already been built for me which I can use as dependencies. And I don't want to spend all my time troubleshooting bugs, either - I'll take a well-maintained repository on GitHub with thousands of users bug-testing it for me over some janky thing some guy on another team threw together a few quarters ago be…

Having dependencies is not bad. But slapping a system together with a ton of dependencies you don't know about is bad.

Simple is better in my opinion.

Re: WhatsApp scaled to 1B users with only 50 engineers

#32

Post by feketegy »

a_humean wrote: post #12
seanhandley wrote: post #6

I wonder if WhatsApp could be considered the most successful user-facing application with an Erlang backend.

What about its original purpose, which was telecoms infrastructure?

Probably that's why they opted for Erlang.

Re: WhatsApp scaled to 1B users with only 50 engineers

#33

Post by octodog »

oblio wrote: post #5
kosolam wrote: post #3

WhatsApp is a spy app of Facebook nowadays

That was its fate anyway. Some things just can't really make money unless they do it in scummy ways (or we haven't found a viable alternative or a way to protect them). Public instant messengers, public forums, public file hosting, public image hosting.

Whatsapp had 700m+ monthly users in early 2015 [1] before they scrapped their subscription fee in early 2016 [2]. Whatsapp was free to use in some jurisdictions for the first year, so we can't assume there was $700m in revenue, but there was certainly enough to pay for 50 engineers you would think.

[1] https://www.businessinsider.com/whatsapp-passes-700-million-...

[2] https://blog.whatsapp.com/making-whats-app-free-and-more-use...

Re: WhatsApp scaled to 1B users with only 50 engineers

#34

Post by Closi »

bjarneh wrote: post #9

This article does very little to explain how they did that. It basically states the type of tech they used (Erlang, FreeBSD and SoftLayer), and something about not trying to over engineer stuff. The title also makes it sound like 500 engineers would make it easier to scale up WhatsApp, which does not make too much sense either.

> The title also makes it sound like 500 engineers would make it easier to scale up WhatsApp, which does not make too much sense either.

It's something I think we have all seen a lot of times - that by the time a company is serving 1 billion users it has quickly expanded out it's engineering team hugely, and because of that additional abstraction is required and the complexity/LOC skyrockets.

Re: WhatsApp scaled to 1B users with only 50 engineers

#35

Post by vadfa »

willejs wrote: post #17
bjarneh wrote: post #9

This article does very little to explain how they did that. It basically states the type of tech they used (Erlang, FreeBSD and SoftLayer), and something about not trying to over engineer stuff. The title also makes it sound like 500 engineers would make it easier to scale up WhatsApp, which does not make too much sense either.

Theres a high scalability post from years ago that has a bit more information. http://highscalability.com/blog/2014/3/31/how-whatsapp-grew-...

>19B messages in & 40B out per day

whatsapp being a closed system I don't understand how this disparity is possible.

Re: WhatsApp scaled to 1B users with only 50 engineers

#36

Post by nodejs_rulez_1 »

seanhandley wrote: post #24
a_humean wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about its original purpose, which was telecoms infrastructure?

Oh, absolutely. I framed it this way intentionally. Without a doubt the most successful Erlang apps are telecoms related.

Telecoms probably funded Erlang way more than WhatsApp did.

Re: WhatsApp scaled to 1B users with only 50 engineers

#37

Post by bryanrasmussen »

tdrdt wrote: post #19
bradhe wrote: post #11

Some of these points are a bit suspicious, and I bet don't tell "the whole story" the way they're intended. For instance, the statement about not investing in automation unless absolutely necessary or the point about hot-swapping Erlang code. Would be good to actually hear from one of these engineers for a discussion on the paint points of working on WhatsApp back then.

Automation can be good, but will also be another system to support. I think this XKCD applies: https://xkcd.com/1205/

If you shave off 1 second I have a hard time believing that 1 second will not just be swallowed up by the entropy of coffee breaks.

Re: WhatsApp scaled to 1B users with only 50 engineers

#38

Post by vadfa »

octodog wrote: post #33
oblio wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was its fate anyway. Some things just can't really make money unless they do it in scummy ways (or we haven't found a viable alternative or a way to protect them). Public instant messengers, public forums, public file hosting, public image hosting.

Whatsapp had 700m+ monthly users in early 2015 [1] before they scrapped their subscription fee in early 2016 [2]. Whatsapp was free to use in some jurisdictions for the first year, so we can't assume there was $700m in revenue, but there was certainly enough to pay for 50 engineers you would think. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/whatsapp-passes-700-million-... [2] https://blog.whatsapp.com/making-whats-app-free-…

Whatsapp only had a subscription fee for android users, and I don't know anybody who ever paid for it. They would keep giving you more and more free time; free subscription time would never run out. I imagine it ran out for some users, but I don't know what the criteria was. Perhaps for users in certain countries? Or for users with lots of iphone friends?

On the other hand, iphone users had to pay for the app upfront to download it off the app store.

Re: WhatsApp scaled to 1B users with only 50 engineers

#39

Post by pydry »

mrich wrote: post #21
alanfranz wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatsapp used to charge 1 eur or usd per year per user. Assuming a 20% vat, that’s $800M in yearly revenue. If you spend $500k per engineer per year, you’re still left with $775M to handle infrastructure and all other expenses. Whatsapp would have been sustainable without fb. That’s the regret.

Facebook to WhatsApp team in the acquisition negotiations: "If you don't sell to us, we'll build our own and offer it for free" And they would have been out of business sooner or later. There are enough people wanting to save that one dollar.

There are plenty of other ways they could have made money that weren't scummy and didnt require hitting up every user for $1.

Business accounts, facilitating p2p payments (minus a scummy new coin), etc.

Sustainability would have been possible in all sorts of ways even though massive levels of profits (in any company) inevitably means being scummy.

Re: WhatsApp scaled to 1B users with only 50 engineers

#40

Post by ducklingslicks »

dncornholio wrote: post #22
alanfranz wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatsapp used to charge 1 eur or usd per year per user. Assuming a 20% vat, that’s $800M in yearly revenue. If you spend $500k per engineer per year, you’re still left with $775M to handle infrastructure and all other expenses. Whatsapp would have been sustainable without fb. That’s the regret.

I've used Whatsapp for a few years when they had this pricing model. Use 1 year for free and pay after. I've never paid anything and nobody who I know needed to pay to keep using WhatsApp.

I think it was free on Android but not on iOS. But not completely sure because I only had Android back then
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