Google has a secret deal with FB called “Jedi Blue” that they knew was illegal • Hacker News Board

Re: Google has a secret deal with FB called “Jedi Blue” that they knew was illegal

#361

Post by floatboth » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 12:00 AM UTC

jqpabc123 wrote: post #23

qnsi wrote: post #8

What can we as people in top 1% with 1) information about big tech abuses 2) skills to fix this do? Individually we can use browsers like firefox or brave and probably donate time or money to them, but I think it's not enough. I think we would need something like a movement against those abuses, but probably the biggest win would be a business model that could win with them in the free market. Is this possible? Has a…

... the biggest win would be a business model that could win with them in the free market. The alternative business model is so simple and is already in place --- simply advertise based on expressed interest. This is what DuckDuckGo is doing very effectively. Show ads based on search words. No global, privacy invading network required. Amazon is doing the same quite effectively. Their ad business is growing by leaps…

That's how Google used to do things back in the day! I still don't get how in the hell could personalized ads be more profitable. All I've heard is the "we'll keep showing you ads for toasters after you bought one because you'd buy another if the first one breaks" meme but where's the hard evidence on personalized ads getting more clicks?! Contextual at least intuitively seems to make way more sense.

Re: Google has a secret deal with FB called “Jedi Blue” that they knew was illegal

#362

Post by janesvilleseo » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 12:01 AM UTC

This explains my question. How much does Google pay for its own ads on its own platforms? No way to check. Easy to manipulate. But this is a whole lot worse.

Re: Google has a secret deal with FB called “Jedi Blue” that they knew was illegal

#363

Post by floatboth » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 12:05 AM UTC

boudin wrote: post #19

qnsi wrote: post #8

What can we as people in top 1% with 1) information about big tech abuses 2) skills to fix this do? Individually we can use browsers like firefox or brave and probably donate time or money to them, but I think it's not enough. I think we would need something like a movement against those abuses, but probably the biggest win would be a business model that could win with them in the free market. Is this possible? Has a…

Can a campaign like Mozilla did to promote firefox when ie6 was a monopoly work? Promote a different browser when someone uses chrome with the possibility to get explanations about it. Contacting admins of sites that only works in chrome, this kind of thing. Could this information be used to try to push chromium based browser like brave and edge to switch to another engine, lowering the influence of google on the web…

It's extremely hard to out-campaign Chrome's campaign of being pushed via google.com and youtube.com, unfortunately.

Though I'd like to see Mozilla try more promotion channels like video sponsorships, maybe go heavier in regions where Google is not as dominant as in the US…

Re: Google has a secret deal with FB called “Jedi Blue” that they knew was illegal

#364

Post by ClumsyPilot » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 12:08 AM UTC

qnsi wrote: post #8

What can we as people in top 1% with 1) information about big tech abuses 2) skills to fix this do? Individually we can use browsers like firefox or brave and probably donate time or money to them, but I think it's not enough. I think we would need something like a movement against those abuses, but probably the biggest win would be a business model that could win with them in the free market. Is this possible? Has a…

"business model that could win with them in the free market"

Does "free market" mean there are no laws? Is so, start kidnapping their executives.

No, we have laws? Well then perhaps police and courts should do their jobs, but I guess harassing everyday joe is easier than holding megacorps to account.

Re: Google has a secret deal with FB called “Jedi Blue” that they knew was illegal

#365

Post by ClumsyPilot » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 12:12 AM UTC

jareklupinski wrote: post #296

qnsi wrote: post #8

What can we as people in top 1% with 1) information about big tech abuses 2) skills to fix this do? Individually we can use browsers like firefox or brave and probably donate time or money to them, but I think it's not enough. I think we would need something like a movement against those abuses, but probably the biggest win would be a business model that could win with them in the free market. Is this possible? Has a…

individually we need to stop working for unethical companies we are the ones building these tools, reading these articles / comments sections, and talking with our colleagues and friends working on developing these products we just have to accept that our takehome might not be as large at the end of the pay-cycle. feels better spending it tho :)

"individually we need to stop working for unethical companies"

Has there been a single case in history where this worked? has this been an issue for drug gangs, mafia, loan sharks, tobacco, alcohol or gun companies or any kind of evil organisation, ever? If not, maybe we should stop parroting it?

Re: Google has a secret deal with FB called “Jedi Blue” that they knew was illegal

#366

Post by dd444fgdfg » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 12:14 AM UTC

Animats wrote: post #357

Sherman Act: "Every person who shall monopolize, or attempt to monopolize, or combine or conspire with any other person or persons, to monopolize any part of the trade or commerce among the several States, or with foreign nations, shall be deemed guilty of a felony." People do go to prison for Sherman Act violations. Here are some older Department of Justice statistics.[1] So when will we see the first arrests? [1] h…

laws are for the poor

Re: Google has a secret deal with FB called “Jedi Blue” that they knew was illegal

#367

Post by cutemonster » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 12:14 AM UTC

monopoledance wrote: post #344

Angostura wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Stop working for those small and big businesses in need of pushing solutions to problems they invented. I've been trying to think of examples, but it's difficult. Google originally thrived because its Search engine pushed a solution for a well-established problem. It's ad business solved a problem for advertisers - and site operators who wanted things simplified. Even Facebook offered a way for people to keep in to…

I don’t believe you. Landfills rapidly filling with last year’s “innovation“ and people getting increasingly dissatisfied with their jobs, because they lost touch with the actual product they are allegedly working on, should be an indication on a larger scale… Apart from all those wonders of petrol-chemistry, like fast-fashion: Short smartphone cycles with minuscule improvements; Uber and food delivery services offer…

Google doesn't sell scooters and food delivery -- other companies do, and advertise about that via Google.

Google's ads service is something those companies (the advertisers) want.

And at the same time, Google has been acting unethically.

Re: Google has a secret deal with FB called “Jedi Blue” that they knew was illegal

#368

Post by dbuder » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 12:15 AM UTC

gonzo41 wrote: post #356

kevinthew wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds exactly like the LIBOR rigging scam, various commodity market scandals. People rightfully go to jail for this stuff -- meanwhile we see the big tech companies bid rig

Actually, we didn't see that many people go to jail for rigging the LIBOR rate. There were a few fall guys but a lot of people made a lot of money.

It was a fake rate anyway and they only moved it around a little, what Jedi Blue did was far more criminal and egregious. The ad networks act with impunity, for example, they know when a user has installed an app with no connection to them and then they serve that user ads for the app and then attribute the install to themselves! out and out fraud but they'll just claim the algo is really complex and our ML/AI doesn't have intent.

Re: Google has a secret deal with FB called “Jedi Blue” that they knew was illegal

#369

Post by amirhirsch » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 12:17 AM UTC

mdoms wrote: post #308

kbos87 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree completely. The sentiment that this is all a shell game and advertisers are being completely manipulated always seems to come from people who don’t have much domain expertise. I’d be quick to throw digital advertising to the wolves but the reality is that it’s extremely effective. Is there a level of opacity? Yes. Are there tranches of junk traffic and ineffective tools put forth by the ad networks? Absolutely.…

No one is saying "advertising doesn't work". We're saying that massively targeted invasive advertising is not significantly more effective than content based advertising. There's plenty of evidence for this assertion.

Provide some evidence then.

Half of the people on this forum can contradict your comment from experience.

Re: Google has a secret deal with FB called “Jedi Blue” that they knew was illegal

#370

Post by jeffparsons » Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 12:19 AM UTC

microtonal wrote: post #258

stackbutterflow wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's a good alternative to gmail? Fastmail? Protonmail? Other? I don't mind paying a small subscription.

I have been using Fastmail for many years. My wife also switched a couple of years ago. The web interface is fast, they have great IMAP support, contribute to open standards (JMAP). They can also be the DNS server for your domain. When I contacted support a few years ago about a keyboard shortcut issue in their webmail, they were very friendly and rolled out a fixed to their beta version very quickly.

I use Fastmail and have been very happy with them. They have been trying to deal with a DDoS attack from around the time this story broke. I initially didn't think anything of the timing, but given that this story is _literally about potentially criminal conspiracy_ it tickles the part of my brain that wants to indulge in other conspiracy theories -- e.g. someone connected to Google thinking "quick, we'd better make it look like a bad idea to try moving off GMail".