Long Beach has temporarily suspended container stacking limitations • Hacker News Board

Re: Long Beach has temporarily suspended container stacking limitations

#471

Post by SteveGerencser » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 4:14 PM UTC

eecc wrote: post #421

SteveGerencser wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only do containers not pay the same, but containers to the same location often don't pay the same. So many variables and often the driver is the one that ends up getting screwed in the process. I completely understand why so many simply refuse certain loads. And getting assigned a load you know nothing about before it's on your truck is a no go for most drivers.

Isn’t that a market failure? I mean the rhetoric of free unregulated market is that the “homo economicus” would use total information and make fully conscious decisions. Seems like some are withholding information to push other actors to make bad deals, externalize losses and generally speaking skirt from supply/demand dynamics.

No, it isn't. Most, or at least a very high percentage of independent truckers bid for cargo runs. Your cargo needs to get from point A to point B and weighs X amount and needs pickup and delivery at certain times. Truckers bid on the those routes and the the winning bidder gets the route.

If you don't want a delivery you don't bid on it or you set your bid high enough to make you want to take it. If no one bids on a delivery then the shipper raises the maximum they will pay and the process starts all over. Delivery location or pickup location a horrible place? Again, don't bid or bid high.

This is exactly the definition of a free market. Telling an independent that they must take the next load available without letting them decide if they even want it is not. That's being an employee. And shipping companies have spent years getting rid of their own fleets and drivers to push the cost to the individual drivers. And yes, there are a LOT of apps for this.

Re: Long Beach has temporarily suspended container stacking limitations

#472

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 4:14 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #85

Truckers are leaving containers all over Los Angeles.[1] Allowing stacking over 2 high is only useful if you have the equipment to stack over 2 high. A place that just stacks empty containers 2 high probably only has large forklifts. The special equipment for high stacking is far more expensive, and only bought if you need it.[2] A more useful proposal is a "peel pile".[3] This is a system which assigns outgoing truc…

[deleted]

Re: Long Beach has temporarily suspended container stacking limitations

#473

Post by CodeWriter23 » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 4:15 PM UTC

@Animats said > A place that just stacks empty containers 2 high probably only has large forklifts. The special equipment for high stacking is far more expensive, and only bought if you need it.[2]

Some facts:

1) Container Height: 8'6". Add approx 4" for the lift slots on the bottom.

2) Forklift with 22' lift available from Sunbelt = 3 Container Height / 50% increase in yard capacity https://www.sunbeltrentals.com/equipment/detail/1044/0550320...

3) Common "construction" type forklift with 39' lift from United Rentals = 4 Container Height / 100% increase in yard capacity. https://www.unitedrentals.com/marketplace/equipment/forklift...

And United has forklifts with even higher reach available.

Re: Long Beach has temporarily suspended container stacking limitations

#474

Post by empthought » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 4:25 PM UTC

eecc wrote: post #455

IkmoIkmo wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, but this isn't necessarily the best example. In this case, frankly part of this issue had to be resolved by relaxing strict zoning laws that weren't allowing space to be used in a way that the market demanded (offloading empty chassis). Such a measure falls under deregulation/free-market/small-government. The other measures proposed (forcing railroads, national guards etc) are of course of a differe…

Sure, although most of the measures proposed are about a massive mobilization subsidized by government. One could also argue that it’s still a brittle, overly lean organization if a landscape regulation tipped it into service disruption.

It was the international demand imbalance that tipped it into service disruption; the landscape regulation just set the conditions for the existing bottleneck.

Re: Long Beach has temporarily suspended container stacking limitations

#475

Post by Ichthypresbyter » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 4:25 PM UTC

CodeWriter23 wrote: post #473

@Animats said > A place that just stacks empty containers 2 high probably only has large forklifts. The special equipment for high stacking is far more expensive, and only bought if you need it.[2] Some facts: 1) Container Height: 8'6". Add approx 4" for the lift slots on the bottom. 2) Forklift with 22' lift available from Sunbelt = 3 Container Height / 50% increase in yard capacity https://www.sunbeltrentals.com/eq…

Those don't look like they can lift a shipping container.

Re: Long Beach has temporarily suspended container stacking limitations

#476

Post by Ichthypresbyter » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 4:29 PM UTC

dpratt wrote: post #90

Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need zoning laws for that. The UK doesn't have them, yet still has pretty stringent controls ("planning permission") on what you can build. Explanation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoning#United_Kingdom Each area - typically a district, which is a sub-unit of a county or city - has a "local plan" which is decided democratically by the local government. "The plan does not provide specific guidance on what…

“We don’t have speed limits, but instead a system where different classes of roads have a preset range of overall maximum velocity.” Does a zoning law by any other name smell as sweet?

The difference between zoning and planning is like the difference between a speed limit and the old "Reasonable and Prudent" law in Montana or the Richtgeschwindigkeit in Germany.

Re: Long Beach has temporarily suspended container stacking limitations

#477

Post by greedo » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 4:31 PM UTC

baybal2 wrote: post #301

aerosmile wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing an important point here - if US customers cannot get their Xmas gifts on time, they won't buy them (nobody is going to order Xmas gifts if they will likely only arrive in January of later). Facebook has about 5 million advertisers, and a material percentage of them relies on the Xmas season for their financials to work out on an annual basis. Millions of US business have deposited 7+ figures each in in…

> If that doesn't happen, how many of them will get bank loans to get them out of this mess? I think you have just affirmed what I have said. USA is world's biggest, but an extremely fragile economy which is full of businesspeople too used to bailouts from a caring government. It's a bigger miracle it never seen major crisises from "encounter with reality" before. > We truly are talking about a Lehman Brothers scale…

This isn't just Xmas gifts, it's servers, routers, hard drives, you name it, stuff that's vital for businesses. We have long delays for much of our IT infrastructure at my company due to this.

Re: Long Beach has temporarily suspended container stacking limitations

#478

Post by toast0 » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 4:36 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #409

toast0 wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's neat, but isn't this whole thing about stacking restrictions on empty containers? It's stacking restrictions for empty containers in lots that are not at the port, I believe. > on-chassis (which I think means on wheels) In container shipping, a chassis is basically a trailer that accepts a container and can be pulled by a semi-truck or one of the utility vehicles they've got at the port to move things around…

For US railroads, railroad cars may seem to be fungible, but someone owns each one and there's a settlements system running behind the scenes. The Association of American Railroads, via their Railinc subsidiary, is behind that, and all railroads that interchange traffic are members. There are standard rates. How does that work for containers?

> How does that work for containers?

Apparently, it doesn't. I would have thought at least some shipping lines would have gotten together to allow for offsets and settlements and all that to ease logistics. Maybe the lines don't want to coordinate or enjoy the semi-lockin that returning a container to the line's yard means it's most convenient to pick up an outgoing container from that yard, or don't trust their inventory with each other.

Re: Long Beach has temporarily suspended container stacking limitations

#479

Post by aerosmile » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 4:46 PM UTC

throwawayboise wrote: post #393

aerosmile wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing an important point here - if US customers cannot get their Xmas gifts on time, they won't buy them (nobody is going to order Xmas gifts if they will likely only arrive in January of later). Facebook has about 5 million advertisers, and a material percentage of them relies on the Xmas season for their financials to work out on an annual basis. Millions of US business have deposited 7+ figures each in in…

I laugh at the idea that the US military might be engaged domestically in helping Amazon and Ebay drop-shippers get cheap chinese crap to 5 year olds who will play with it for maybe a week before it breaks or they lose interest.

This comment explains all I needed to know about why so few people in this country are taking this crisis seriously. The understanding is that this is the Amazon drop shippers who are whining, so why bother? There are countless counter arguments provided by other commenters, so I will just add this - the analogy with Lehman Brothers is a gift that keeps on giving; when they failed, there were also people saying "it's just the rich folks who will lose their money."

So the idea that this is all about the drop shippers is laughably wrong. But throwawayboise does bring up a point that's worth discussing - what kind of crises are "beneath" the role and purpose of the US military? Is their role just to blow shit up, or is there an economic and humanitarian angle there as well? For example, if an earthquake took out an entire metropolitan area, would it be beneath all those soldiers to dig for human remains, or would they leave that to whatever the more appropriate branch of public service that would be (even with the understanding that joining forces would save more lives)? I know that in the other two countries I've lived in this would be a silly question - of course the military would roll up their sleeves. In the US, I genuinely don't know. The author of the above comment is obviously ignorant when it comes to economic matters, but when it comes to military matters, I wouldn't be surprised if his tone resonated with many others.

FWIW, Ryan proves that not everyone in the US thinks like that, and certainly all the people from the international community I've met wouldn't agree with throwawayboise either.

Re: Long Beach has temporarily suspended container stacking limitations

#480

Post by aerosmile » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 4:58 PM UTC

babypuncher wrote: post #327

aerosmile wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The guy is a bad ass. If he wanted to run for President, he would win. I am really not exaggerating - I had a chance to meet him a few years back, and at that time he was the most impressive person I had talked to in person for an extended amount of time (not based on credentials or achievement, but simply based on clarity of thought and new ways of thinking). I also know that PG rates him incredibly highly. To give…

Please no more CEOs running for president. The government is not a business.

After four years of Trump, I know where you're coming from. But you're projecting the moral and ethical values of one person to millions of people.

Here's the thing - I've run startups that had a strong business, and those that haven't. While I would believe that my fundamental values never changed, I can tell you that I was far more tested in situations when we were running out of money than when we had 8 figures in our bank account. For example, how do you design a paid leave policy? With 8 figures in the bank, you really have to be a psychopath not to leaning on the generous side. But when you don't know if you can do the next payroll and the financial security of 100 people hinges on you hitting the next month's target... and then someone tells you about a family member who just passed away... Sometimes there are no good solutions, and you want to avoid getting yourself in those situations. So ironically, a hard-hitting CEO can sometimes lead to a better paid leave policy than a startup run by the most empathetic social worker in the world.