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Google digital advertising antitrust litigation [pdf]

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Re: Google digital advertising antitrust litigation [pdf]

#151
post #40

159-169, about Google being able to decrypt end-to-end encrypted WA (WhatsApp) communications is terrifying. The fact that Google has known this for over 5 years and made no effort to notify the public is what really got me. What's fucked up is that Google Drive backups are the only ones WA offers, and naturally everyone wants their messages backed up so they turn it on, not knowing the implications.

Slight nitpick I know but decrypt here is the not quite the right word. The communications are still encrypted in flight but they are necessarily decrypted (by WhatsApp) on the end (your device). This unencrypted file is then provided to drive if you select back up with Google drive in WhatsApp. I'm in two minds about this one. I'm not really a fan of Google but realistically we're talking about backing up messages f…

> This unencrypted file is then provided to drive if you select back up with Google drive in WhatsApp.

Why can't they just encrypt the data?! It makes no sense. I manually back up my messages because of this. After some time WhatsApp will start nagging me to enable cloud backups. I suppose this fits into the "annoy users until they give up their privacy" theme in the litigation document.

Re: Google digital advertising antitrust litigation [pdf]

#152
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but this seems pretty typical for an initial filing. They don't typically show all their cards. So snippets like: >Internally, Google employees grappled with “how to [publicly] justify [Google] making something slower.” Could be more, or less interesting, when the actual source document is published. There's some more detail in a highly redacted document here: https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/sites/defau…

> A second employee captured Google’s ultimate aim of destroying header bidding altogether, noting in response that [redacted] So from a probably naive view, getting rid of header bidding seems like it would be faster, not slower. Is the assertion being made that it isn't faster and it just so happens to also enrich the ad network?

Yes, you're right. It's faster not to have it, but that puts publishers at a disadvantage...Google reaps more revenue and gives less in return if it doesn't exist. Header bidding is often estimated to improve revenue by 10% or so for publishers.

The sequence was first employee probably said something like "make it slower if they aren't on AMP", and the second employee made some kind of suggestion to kill it altogether.

Re: Google digital advertising antitrust litigation [pdf]

#153

I hope we can keep politics out of this thread, but I couldn't help but notice all of the plaintiff states are dominantly Republican states. Any ideas why that would be and why the "blue" states aren't present?

You "hope we can keep politics out of the thread", and then, shockingly enough, are the only person to bring politics into an antitrust thread about gross systemic abuse of Google's size and power to drive standards and privacy.

Re: Google digital advertising antitrust litigation [pdf]

#154
post #90

159-169, about Google being able to decrypt end-to-end encrypted WA (WhatsApp) communications is terrifying. The fact that Google has known this for over 5 years and made no effort to notify the public is what really got me. What's fucked up is that Google Drive backups are the only ones WA offers, and naturally everyone wants their messages backed up so they turn it on, not knowing the implications.

And what are the implications? Is Google analyzing uploads to Google Drive to serve you targeted ads? That would be a big breach in trust.

> Is Google analyzing uploads to Google Drive to serve you targeted ads?

Is there any reason to believe they're not doing that? It's already a known fact that they scan files for malware and other illegal files such as CSAM. WhatsApp backup contents are a gold mine of personal information.

Re: Google digital advertising antitrust litigation [pdf]

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Given that Google is critical for US intelligence supremacy and technological dominance, I am curious what the US chooses to do with it. Peter Thiel says Google is anti-American because it chooses to work with China but not with US. I wouldn't quite agree with Thiel but I would say that Google's neoliberal culture and neoliberal agenda is starting to become destructive and counter- productive in the long term.

"Anti-American" is rich, coming from someone who would sell the 4th amendment to the highest bidder.

In the age of modern technology and the internet I think the sense and meaning of privacy is lost because everything is out there on the net waiting to be misused, abused, hacked, stolen, leaked or caught just like fish in the ocean.

If I was US gov. I would've made law in the early 1990s that says every website, blog etc. is private property and no entity has right to crawl it if not given permission basically eliminating early Internet Search Engine industry meaning the behemoth like Google would probably never exist.

I would also made law that says that private information of a person can only be used in order to facilitate payment transactions with operators that provide and sell goods and services meaning ecommerce e.g. (Amazon, Ebay, Uber, Airbnb etc.)

Basically this law would eliminate early Internet Social Networks like MySpace and Facebook which thrive on using private information of the people for creating ad solutions for advertisers. Subscribing to social networks(buying Social Network service) would made privacy and security situation much better than it is today.

But internet and world would be much different place and I think that using Google and Facebook for "free" comes with big trade-offs that every person needs to evaluate personally or government needs to step in with clear and strict privacy laws.

Re: Google digital advertising antitrust litigation [pdf]

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is about making sure that the free market is actually working not so much about freedom as in freedom of expression - any course about economics will have section about monopolies and its societal cost - showing charts like this: https://college.cengage.com/economics/0538797274_mceachern/s... The cost is real but so is the national security advantage.

So in order to keep the free market working, we have to make it... less free? I thought the definition of a free market is one that is free of government/outside regulation and interference. But it's also a market that is free of monopolies, apparently, and the only way to get rid of a monopoly is via government/outside regulation and interference. Isn't that a contradiction? Perhaps we should use another name for a…

I would argue that markets tend towards greater "order" over time. The idea that regulations are something only the government does is somewhat misleading and it leads most free market proponents to turn down sub-optimal pathways.

Instead, it is more useful to see the initial state that new "green-field" markets are in as desirable. Open for anyone, including small companies, to come in, build something ground-breaking, and then grow.

Overtime, the system tends towards a steady state where one of the companies, or a set of companies start to dominate the others, leading to the formation of cartels. These cartels then impose regulations, be it on the lifespan of bulbs, or on the particulars of the ad market, which are then enforced using the capital and power they have obtained.

These are regulations in all but name. They're enforced by an implicit threat of economic consequences and by restricting access to resources by changing the landscape. In this case, it's Chrome and FB, which are pushing their dominance to ensure that the web becomes theirs - explicitly. They're doing this by buying out the 'land' (Chrome, Android, Search, Social Media, Ads), the 'suppliers' (think about the sheer number of open source projects that Google funds and nudges their way), and the market ("it's all free!") thereby making it practically impossible for anyone to pose a threat to their dominance.

Google is controlling who becomes a competitor by enforcing rules – in this case, secret rules – that only they know of and about. They are, in essence, regulating the market, except towards their ends.

Power abhors a vacuum. If a power hierarchy doesn't exist in a new space, then a new power structure will organically develop in place. Whether or not this new structure is aligned with the incentives of the broader community and new entrants/players/innovators is dependent on who and how the structure is formed.

This is why I would argue that at least with Governments there's a theoretical method of incentive alignment and accountability when things wrong. Methods that have been exercised in the past to course correct. Corporations lack that.

It would be the lesser of two evils to create ways to reverse stale fields to the original green field state every once in a while to allow new ideas and companies to grow. It might be more valuable to do so than to allow the continued monopoly of these companies.

Re: Google digital advertising antitrust litigation [pdf]

#157
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have slightly simpler proposition - ban digital advertising. Or at least ban the 'dynamic' one - the one which tries to match the user's preferences. Just static, random ads akin to TV or billboards next to the roads.

How would that address the issue of Google rigging the bidding by owning the bidding mechanism, marketplace, and managing publisher inventory? There would still be a real time auction taking place for each impression.

A huge part of this document is about how Google has exclusive access to user ids. If nobody can use user ids, then they don't have those advantages anymore.

Re: Google digital advertising antitrust litigation [pdf]

#158

I hope we can keep politics out of this thread, but I couldn't help but notice all of the plaintiff states are dominantly Republican states. Any ideas why that would be and why the "blue" states aren't present?

Not sure about this particular case but I think there's multiple different ones going on so just looking at this might be a bit misleading of whose taking an interest. Eg. there's an NY case mentioned here: https://ag.ny.gov/press-release/2021/attorney-general-james-... The Biden DoJ is also digging: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/01/technology/google-antitru...

Re: Google digital advertising antitrust litigation [pdf]

#159

249. The speed benefits Google marketed were also at least partly a result of Google’s throttling. Google throttles the load time of non-AMP ads by giving them artificial one-second delays in order to give Google AMP a “nice comparative boost.” Throttling non-AMP ads slows down header bidding, which Google then uses to denigrate header bidding for being too slow. “Header Bidding can often increase latency of web page…

I’m on my phone so I can’t find it now, but I remember an elaborate GitHub or chrome dev thread where users and google devs explored the 1 second delay in depth, and a reason for it relating to an issue where some ads could break or fail to load without the delay. Not sure how legitimate my memory is, but I recall folks on hn defending it at the time.

Re: Google digital advertising antitrust litigation [pdf]

#160
post #14

249. The speed benefits Google marketed were also at least partly a result of Google’s throttling. Google throttles the load time of non-AMP ads by giving them artificial one-second delays in order to give Google AMP a “nice comparative boost.” Throttling non-AMP ads slows down header bidding, which Google then uses to denigrate header bidding for being too slow. “Header Bidding can often increase latency of web page…

They're also pushing for the adoption of Signed HTTP Exchanges, with several Google employees defending the spec here on HN, comparing it to be merely like HTTPS in terms of publishers giving up control over their content. It's clear that Chrome must be separated from Google and Alphabet, nothing else will stop them from trying to colonize the web.

> It's clear that Chrome must be separated from Google and Alphabet, nothing else will stop them from trying to colonize the web.

Or advocate for open alternatives, use Firefox, and make sure any site you build (or you build at work) work perfectly in non Chrome browsers.

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