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.NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

devblogs.microsoft.com

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Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#141

Post by rk06 »

thrower123 wrote: post #119
blibble wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yep, modern Visual Studio is a terrible experience end-to-end it takes at least 3 minutes to start, the UI designer takes 30+ seconds to appear, and starting your process for debugging takes 10+ seconds every single autocomplete takes a few seconds to appear even opening a 100 line .c file takes 10+ seconds, and they KNOW its bad because it pops up a dialog with a progress bar! this is all on a azure "cloud" instance…

You can trace a lot of these problems to their bone-headed decision about a decade ago where they refused to see where things were going and kept rationalizing not moving to 64-bits. I have some moderately sized solutions that take forever to open and chug to a halt and start paging like crazy with unresponsive UI if I don't disable all the code inspections and Intellisense. This is on a brand-new i7 with 32GB of RAM…

FWIW, vs2022 is 64bit.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#142

Post by rafaelvasco »

bmitc wrote: post #111
oaiey wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are people on record that it was the Azure division head Scott Guthrie who gave permission to open source ASP.NET Core (which at the time was part of Azure). Later the asp.net team merged with the .net team and brought the open sourcing with them. VS has no place anymore. The velocity and mindshare is with VS Code. VS with its visual designers had its place .. but desktop is dead and Xamarin competes with frame…

> but desktop is dead People keep saying this, but they obviously have no idea. Desktop isn’t dead and nowhere near it. Just because web and mobile app developers think so doesn’t make it true. There are several industries in which desktop applications are a must. Any application with the needs of multiple windows automatically rules out web and mobile stacks, even if they happen to work on desktops.

Desktop dead. That would be a nightmare scenario for me as I much prefer coding desktop based apps/games compared to web things. I code web things professionally. It's where the money is. But the fun is in desktop/mobile/console apps/games.

It would be more precise to say: Desktop business apps are dead. That is almost 100% true. Some lingering ghosts still exist.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#143

Post by fgonzag »

tester756 wrote: post #60
oaiey wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are people on record that it was the Azure division head Scott Guthrie who gave permission to open source ASP.NET Core (which at the time was part of Azure). Later the asp.net team merged with the .net team and brought the open sourcing with them. VS has no place anymore. The velocity and mindshare is with VS Code. VS with its visual designers had its place .. but desktop is dead and Xamarin competes with frame…

>VS has no place anymore. That's exaggeration at best. VS with extensions like Roslynator make C# development really good. VS Code is nice, but I always felt like VS had significantly more reliable Intellisense than VS Code (for C#). but I wish VS (real, not 4Mac) worked on Linux.

Have you tried Rider? I ditched VS as soon as I found it, but I already used intellij idea for java projects. It works perfectly on Linux.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#144

Post by Mikeb85 »

Yet more reason I'll continue avoiding anything MS, probably forever. Also makes me more thankful than ever for Emacs. VS Code is obviously part of their embrace/extinguish strategy, it's a nice editor, but I won't use it on principle.

If the only reason they walked back this decision is the backlash, they'll continue to try get away with whatever they can. Their culture obviously hasn't changed for the better.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#145

Post by rafaelvasco »

blibble wrote: post #36
ethbr0 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point, VS needs to be put under VSC management. You saw the same crap with Office vs everything new.

yep, modern Visual Studio is a terrible experience end-to-end it takes at least 3 minutes to start, the UI designer takes 30+ seconds to appear, and starting your process for debugging takes 10+ seconds every single autocomplete takes a few seconds to appear even opening a 100 line .c file takes 10+ seconds, and they KNOW its bad because it pops up a dialog with a progress bar! this is all on a azure "cloud" instance…

VS2022 takes ~5 seconds to start. Auto complete is milliseconds etc. Starting anything is a couple seconds max.

There's something very wrong with your machine.

VS2022 is an amazing experience end-to-end.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#146

Post by rafaelvasco »

sergiotapia wrote: post #70

This kind of stains .NET as a whole moving forward. I now qualify .net and C# as a non-starter. Just like I would Oracle for my database needs. Is it fast, great, nice to use? Maybe -- but I won't ever use it because it's riddled with licenses and other bullshit I really don't care about. I'll continue to use truly open source and free tools like Postgres and Elixir.

Been using .NET since 2010. To this day I haven't found anything better overall (for my use cases). Experimented here and there, but in the end I always come back to C#. And it keeps getting better.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#147

Post by the_duke »

This is not directly related, but I think Microsoft regrets the commoditization of language editing features via LSP.

In hindsight, editor independent language IDE features driven via a client-server model are such an obvious idea - to the point that I wonder why it took so long for this model to emerge. It makes so much sense to build the IDE features a single time, ideally re-using parts of the compiler infrastructure.

By now a lot language servers exist. They have various levels of quality, and the purpose built solutions like VS or the various Jetbrains products are often markedly superior.

But many of them are more than good enough for a lot of developers, and they allow turning even Vim into a full-featured, powerful editing environment. (Neovim 0.5 has built-in LSP support)

This all started out with VS Code, Typescript, and the LSP specification, and Microsoft deserves a lot of credit for kicking off this trend.

But something that probably started out as a way to popularize VS Code and Typescript has turned into a movement that makes the chosen editor much less crucial and more of a commodity.

This almost certainly wasn't the intended outcome, or at least a side effect that wasn't anticipated.

Hence also the recent steps to counter this trend, like restricting the new Python LSP or this newest .NET drama.

Microsoft earned back a lot of good-will from developers with Typescript, VS Code, .net core, Github, npm, .... Many younger devs have lost the mistrust and disgust that was common in certain spheres not that long ago.

They probably feel confident enough now to shift gears and aim for lock-in and control.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#148

Post by ComputerGuru »

xvilka wrote: post #124
bmitc wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but desktop is dead People keep saying this, but they obviously have no idea. Desktop isn’t dead and nowhere near it. Just because web and mobile app developers think so doesn’t make it true. There are several industries in which desktop applications are a must. Any application with the needs of multiple windows automatically rules out web and mobile stacks, even if they happen to work on desktops.

> There are several industries I would say most industries. Anything that requires creating any kind of digital content (images, videos, CAD models, electronic schematics, chip design, PCB layout, etc), most of the scientific software, all rely on the computational power and the speed of the desktop applications.

Ugh, don’t remind me that Fusion 360 uses a web view for its UI. AutoDesk Inventor was so much better.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#149

Post by malkia »

oaiey wrote: post #39
fabian2k wrote: post #25

This feels more like an internal turf war inside Microsoft. The general open source strategy with .NET Core and VS Code has been running long enough that I don't think it's just a smoke screen. But there's probably plenty of different interests inside Microsoft that are at least partially in conflict. The Azure side probably doesn't care about selling Visual Studio, but they care about developer mindshare and reputat…

There are people on record that it was the Azure division head Scott Guthrie who gave permission to open source ASP.NET Core (which at the time was part of Azure). Later the asp.net team merged with the .net team and brought the open sourcing with them. VS has no place anymore. The velocity and mindshare is with VS Code. VS with its visual designers had its place .. but desktop is dead and Xamarin competes with frame…

Visual Studio's debugger alone makes it worth. It's not that it's the most powerful debugger (not like WinDbg), but it's so polished for most things I would typically do, also mixed callstacks for certain languages, Parallel Stacks and certain other features.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#150

Post by ComputerGuru »

tomnipotent wrote: post #135
saghm wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IDE specifically, or editor in general? The former wouldn't really surprise me since most of the editors I see friends and coworkers using aren't really IDEs per se; I mostly see people using VS Code, Vim, Sublime, and maybe emacs occasionally. The only IDEs people I know ever talk about using besides VS are Jetbrains products and I guess Xcode for iOS dev.

https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2021#section-most-...

Wow, (n)vim is just behind at 30% - I didn’t realize it was that high!
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