U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts • Hacker News Board

Re: U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

#41

Post by nitrogen » Wed, Aug 17, 2011, 11:15 PM UTC

sfk wrote: post #3

Much better article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/16/facebook-riot-calls... "Perry Sutcliffe-Keenan, 22, of Latchford, Warrington, used his Facebook account in the early hours of 9 August to design a web page entitled The Warrington Riots. The court was told it caused a wave of panic in the town. When he woke up the following morning with a hangover, he removed the page and apologised, saying it had been a j…

There are a number of technological misrepresentations in your quotation that would seem inconsequential to the average judge or journalist, but actually make a huge difference in meaning and effect:

...used his Facebook account...to design a web page...

The word "design" implies stronger intent and effort than is actually required to post an event to Facebook. "Web page" is not typically used to refer to user-generated content on Facebook, but rather a distinct presence on the Internet that exists independently of and can be accessed without assistance from Facebook. Saying "web page" rather than "Facebook post" implies a much wider intended exposure than is actually likely.

His message was distributed to 400 Facebook contacts...

This number dropping seems like a journalistic scare tactic. Probably half or more of the users on Facebook have hundreds of Facebook "friends." Saying the message "was distributed to 400...contacts" implies deliberate, intended dissemination of the post. It is far more likely that the post simply ended up in his news feed automatically, and that many of his 400 friends didn't even see the post. It is also possible that he invited all of his Facebook friends to the event, in which case all 400 would receive the invitation, but that is far, far different from, say, distributing a crime-inciting newsletter to 400 willing subscribers, or sending instructions to an active criminal network of 400 members.

Re: U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

#42

Post by arethuza » Wed, Aug 17, 2011, 11:16 PM UTC

Daniel_Newby wrote: post #10

"Jordan Blackshaw, left, and Perry Sutcliffe-Keenan, both pleaded guilty to using Facebook in attempts to fuel riots in Cheshire . They have been jailed for four years" One wonders what sort of lawyer they had that recommended a guilty plea, or in the absence of a lawyer what was done to encourage that plea. "Perry Sutcliffe-Keenan, 22, of Latchford, Warrington, used his Facebook account in the early hours of 9 Augus…

They both plead guilty - what exactly were their lawyers supposed to do?

Re: U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

#43

Post by nitrogen » Wed, Aug 17, 2011, 11:20 PM UTC

tzs wrote: post #40

Daniel_Newby wrote: post #10

"Jordan Blackshaw, left, and Perry Sutcliffe-Keenan, both pleaded guilty to using Facebook in attempts to fuel riots in Cheshire . They have been jailed for four years" One wonders what sort of lawyer they had that recommended a guilty plea, or in the absence of a lawyer what was done to encourage that plea. "Perry Sutcliffe-Keenan, 22, of Latchford, Warrington, used his Facebook account in the early hours of 9 Augus…

Do courts in the UK have any flexibility in sentencing? Do defendants generally know what evidence the prosecution has against them? If so, then I'd expect guilty pleas to often be sensible. If you know you are guilty, and you know that the prosecution has sufficient evidence to make it virtually certain you'll be convicted, why not plead guilty and hope that sways the court to leniency? I'd expect a court to be more…

What is the motivation for requiring a plea of not guilty before going to trial, apart from saving the court time and money? Why not default to a trial in all cases, allow the defendant to stop the trial by pleading guilty, but ensure that not pleading guilty is never seen as being unremorseful?

Re: U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

#44

Post by nitrogen » Wed, Aug 17, 2011, 11:24 PM UTC

AndyJPartridge wrote: post #34

dave1010uk wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prison sentences, fines, comunity service, etc are already a deterrent to crime. These deterrents (and punishments) are considered proportionate to the crime by the judge/jury. I see no reason to single out rioting to be different, apart from emotional ones.

But it hasn't acted as a deterrent, has it. The first tiny window of opportunity these organised shoplifters had, they went for it. It wasn't rioting or a protest.

So because x pounds of punishment wasn't a deterrent, we are to believe that x times two pounds of punishment will be? Why not, instead, work toward inspiring people to strive to do good, rather than punishing them into fearing to do evil?

Re: U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

#45

Post by iaskwhy » Wed, Aug 17, 2011, 11:26 PM UTC

ErrantX wrote: post #38

Daniel_Newby wrote: post #10

"Jordan Blackshaw, left, and Perry Sutcliffe-Keenan, both pleaded guilty to using Facebook in attempts to fuel riots in Cheshire . They have been jailed for four years" One wonders what sort of lawyer they had that recommended a guilty plea, or in the absence of a lawyer what was done to encourage that plea. "Perry Sutcliffe-Keenan, 22, of Latchford, Warrington, used his Facebook account in the early hours of 9 Augus…

This is just the tip of the ice berg; the most disparate crime/punishment of many. Don't get me wrong; I've always been in favour of effective punishment - but this is totally the wrong time for our justice system to "go spare". Firm but fair is important in situations like this. I approve of punishing these two, who did something idiotic with the potential for great harm. A slap on the wrists, or a small fine maybe.…

Well, I can understand why they critic the police strategy, this would never get this out of control in most countries.

Re: U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

#46

Post by jacquesm » Wed, Aug 17, 2011, 11:50 PM UTC

shazamjad wrote: post #19

andyking wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was a crown court case, which is even more concerning. Crown court is used for serious offences which require a punishment of more than six months in prison, so for a case such as this to get from arrest to multi-year crown court sentence in a week is hugely concerning. A case has to first be heard in magistrates' court and handed to crown court, so it will have been in the hands of Chester Crown Court for just…

I wouldn't feel for those having justice dealt to them, not one bit. They not only participated in the riots - but made an effort to promote them. As for the woman who accepted stolen goods from her flatmate - she deserved it. The right course of action would've been to advise her flatmate to turn herself in and return the goods, or actually call the police herself. She decides to go through the stolen goods, picking…

Right, because everybody knows that taking a mother away from her children for five months to punish her for accepting a pair of pants that she didn't steal is justice.

Really, I hope you have receipts for every item you've ever received from someone else.

Sure, these riots are wrong on many levels but this is totally disproportionate.

Re: U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

#47

Post by VladRussian » Wed, Aug 17, 2011, 11:50 PM UTC

speaking about value of anonymity on Facebook in particular and on the Internet in general...

People pay dearly for the lack (or disregard?) of basic skills and practices (anonymity, wireless, encryption, route through server in another country, etc...) of how to exercise freedom of speech even in the countries where such freedom is known to not even be guaranteed by law, like Britain or Libya.

Re: U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

#48

Post by shazamjad » Wed, Aug 17, 2011, 11:52 PM UTC

bugsy wrote: post #32

shazamjad wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't feel for those having justice dealt to them, not one bit. They not only participated in the riots - but made an effort to promote them. As for the woman who accepted stolen goods from her flatmate - she deserved it. The right course of action would've been to advise her flatmate to turn herself in and return the goods, or actually call the police herself. She decides to go through the stolen goods, picking…

We also should arrest all the people in Tunisia, Egypt and Libya who rioted in their countries this year as well. Disorder must not be tolerated! Government power above all else! Bow before your gods, peasants!

There's rioting for the sake of a rebellion, hopefully leading to a revolution. Then there's rioting for the sake of looting and causing damage, nothing more.

Re: U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

#49

Post by Daniel_Newby » Wed, Aug 17, 2011, 11:52 PM UTC

arethuza wrote: post #42

Daniel_Newby wrote: post #10

"Jordan Blackshaw, left, and Perry Sutcliffe-Keenan, both pleaded guilty to using Facebook in attempts to fuel riots in Cheshire . They have been jailed for four years" One wonders what sort of lawyer they had that recommended a guilty plea, or in the absence of a lawyer what was done to encourage that plea. "Perry Sutcliffe-Keenan, 22, of Latchford, Warrington, used his Facebook account in the early hours of 9 Augus…

They both plead guilty - what exactly were their lawyers supposed to do?

Their lawyers were supposed to be there beforehand, lawyering. Advising not to talk to the police, getting bail, doing the discovery investigation, establishing chain of custody of evidence, examining witnesses under the oath of perjury, establishing motivation and intent, establishing mental competence at time of offense, comparing the complaint to precedent, determining if the complaint corresponds to an actual law, excluding inadmissible evidence, getting a jury trial, changing the jury trial to a less hostile venue, and so forth.

Any lawyer with a pulse would have done at least one of these things, but not a single one appears to have been done. Therefore their legal counsel was probably almost certainly impeded in some way. The judge appears to accept this impediment without blushing, so the bad counsel was probably planned. In other words, they are being railroaded.

I suspect the judge was sick and tired of 20 years of handing out wrist slaps at the behest of Parliament and their politically correct ministries and took the opportunity to land a few punches while the gloves are off. In other words, it is a continuation of the riots by other means.

Re: U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

#50

Post by estel » Wed, Aug 17, 2011, 11:53 PM UTC

tzs wrote: post #40

Daniel_Newby wrote: post #10

"Jordan Blackshaw, left, and Perry Sutcliffe-Keenan, both pleaded guilty to using Facebook in attempts to fuel riots in Cheshire . They have been jailed for four years" One wonders what sort of lawyer they had that recommended a guilty plea, or in the absence of a lawyer what was done to encourage that plea. "Perry Sutcliffe-Keenan, 22, of Latchford, Warrington, used his Facebook account in the early hours of 9 Augus…

Do courts in the UK have any flexibility in sentencing? Do defendants generally know what evidence the prosecution has against them? If so, then I'd expect guilty pleas to often be sensible. If you know you are guilty, and you know that the prosecution has sufficient evidence to make it virtually certain you'll be convicted, why not plead guilty and hope that sways the court to leniency? I'd expect a court to be more…

There's definitely leniency. Depending on the case, I believe the standard tariff reduction for a sufficiently early Guilty plea is 1/3.