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Decreasing service fees on subscriptions to 15%

android-developers.googleblog.com

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Re: Decreasing service fees on subscriptions to 15%

#241
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not actually the truth. You can go to F-Droid, or Cydia, Amazon or one of the dozens of SEA app stores that exist. You have plenty of options. Your argument is basically that Wal-Mart is everywhere, so Wal-Mart should be forced to serve you on your terms.

Epic is suing Google over direct and considered anti-competitive action preventing alternative stores from taking hold, and they might have a case. https://www.theverge.com/2021/8/19/22632804/epic-google-laws... Meanwhile, you reference Cydia (my alternative to the App Store), but I am myself suing Apple for over their efforts to lock us out competing on iOS. https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/12/10/cydia…

Any updates since that Washington Post article was published? Do you have a blog or something with press releases or updates about the case?

I hope you get somewhere with the complaint.

Re: Decreasing service fees on subscriptions to 15%

#242
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Epic is suing Google over direct and considered anti-competitive action preventing alternative stores from taking hold, and they might have a case. https://www.theverge.com/2021/8/19/22632804/epic-google-laws... Meanwhile, you reference Cydia (my alternative to the App Store), but I am myself suing Apple for over their efforts to lock us out competing on iOS. https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/12/10/cydia…

I know Cydia's your thing (I'd recognize your username anywhere) and I have an infinite amount of respect for you because of it, but I think the status quo is probably fine. iOS is a minority of the market and "Do you know how to jailbreak your cell phone?" serves as a decent deterrent to stop clueless people from butchering themselves with too much freedom. It sounds really lame to say, but it feels like what you're…

> It sounds really lame to say, but it feels like what you're suggesting is the exact opposite of what the market wants.

If that's what the market wanted then Apple wouldn't have to spend so much money on preventing their customers from rooting their phones, running any apps they want to run and using alternative mobile app distribution methods.

> People want a device they can give to their kid without worrying that they'll mess it up.

Chromebooks are those devices, which is one of the reasons they're used in education. There were 40 million Chromebooks in public schools and about 53 million K-12 students in the US in 2019.

You can run whatever Android or Linux software you want on them, and use whatever mobile app distribution you want, too, like F-Droid.

Re: Decreasing service fees on subscriptions to 15%

#243
post #224
post #3

I don't see the point. Spotify's not willing to give up 10% of their Android revenue, they'll still use their own payment. Epic won't give up 15%. South Korea mandated that apps be allowed to have custom payment methods within apps. Why would any big company, whether Netflix, Epic or Spotify, still give Android 10%? It just seems that the "app store pay toll" is getting less and less justifiable; and it seems outrage…

I’d like a source for the “37%” profit from the App store. Apple’s services division which includes the app store, music service, icloud services, apple pay, apple card, arcade/news/tv+ and fitness generated 20% of apple’s profit in their last filing. If we rewind to before the addition of apple music and most of those other services we have this division earning just 10%. It’s simply not supported that the app store…

From here[1]:

> In the second week of the trial, in which the maker of “Fortnite” alleged monopolistic practices by Apple in federal court in Oakland, Calif., Epic called an expert witness — Ned Barnes of the Berkeley Research Group — to the stand.

> Barnes calculated that the App Store had hefty profit margins, which increased to 78% in 2019, up from 75% in 2018, and generated $22 billion in commissions for Apple last year.

[1] https://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-profitable-is-apples-a...

Re: Decreasing service fees on subscriptions to 15%

#244
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d like a source for the “37%” profit from the App store. Apple’s services division which includes the app store, music service, icloud services, apple pay, apple card, arcade/news/tv+ and fitness generated 20% of apple’s profit in their last filing. If we rewind to before the addition of apple music and most of those other services we have this division earning just 10%. It’s simply not supported that the app store…

From here[1]: > In the second week of the trial, in which the maker of “Fortnite” alleged monopolistic practices by Apple in federal court in Oakland, Calif., Epic called an expert witness — Ned Barnes of the Berkeley Research Group — to the stand. > Barnes calculated that the App Store had hefty profit margins, which increased to 78% in 2019, up from 75% in 2018, and generated $22 billion in commissions for Apple la…

.. but this didn’t at all support your statement that the App Store generates 37% of apple’s profit.

Apple make around 70-80B revenue per quarter, 22B in annual commission is around 6% of annual revenue…

That 22B figure doesn’t even touch on costs.

Re: Decreasing service fees on subscriptions to 15%

#246
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation needed. Can you name a monopoly that lasted 10 years or more without government help?

de beers?

De Beers certainly had government help. The paper used by Wikipedia to support the claim that they are considered a monopoly[1] acknowledges this:

> In addition to the structure of the De Beers cartel, the main force behind this dominance for many years has been the role played by governments. It is possible for a cartel to continue if there is a governing body above that can enforce agreement. Through continuously changing its stance toward corporations, the South African government and other governments essentially protected the companies that were providing them with easily and centrally collected tax revenues. Governments have frequently imposed output quotas and have used legislation, such as the Illicit Diamond Buying laws (IDB), to protect these companies from black markets and their effects on pricing. (As a comparison, one of the weaknesses of OPEC is that it is a cartel of governments over which no other actor can impose control, whereas De Beers has formed a cartel of companies and has often successfully lobbied governments to enforce cooperation on its behalf).

> This argument of government-forced cooperation held while Africa was the dominant supplier of diamonds, but it no longer has the complete stranglehold that it once did. As the cartel has not yet disintegrated, however, other reasons must also exist. Researchers believe that De Beers exists as a monopoly to maximize profits, not just to maintain them. Hence, it is in the members’ interest to stay within the cartel rather than go it alone.

It's however conceivable that a monopoly like De Beers could survive even in a free market because they seem to be the optimal solution to a coordination problem where everyone's (including the consumer's and the prospective competitor's) incentives are aligned. The paper explains:

> Second, the demand for diamonds is not typical and must be analyzed using Veblen’s theory of conspicuous consumption. This theory replaces the traditional downward-sloping demand curve with one that is upward-sloping, suggesting that the higher the price of an item, the higher the demand. This phenomenon would imply that higher prices have a dual effect on the profits of a company, first, through higher margins and, second, through increased sales. Therefore, it is in a company’s best interest to maintain high prices. For diamonds in particular, this means that the perception of desirability associated with diamonds is critical to the life of the industry as a whole and that if the price of diamonds falls, the overall demand for them will follow. Therefore, it is again in the interest of the individual players in this industry to “play nice” and cooperate, since cheating the cartel will actually lower their profits instead of raising them.

[1]: https://www0.gsb.columbia.edu/mygsb/faculty/research/pubfile...

Re: Decreasing service fees on subscriptions to 15%

#247
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not actually the truth. You can go to F-Droid, or Cydia, Amazon or one of the dozens of SEA app stores that exist. You have plenty of options. Your argument is basically that Wal-Mart is everywhere, so Wal-Mart should be forced to serve you on your terms.

Epic is suing Google over direct and considered anti-competitive action preventing alternative stores from taking hold, and they might have a case. https://www.theverge.com/2021/8/19/22632804/epic-google-laws... Meanwhile, you reference Cydia (my alternative to the App Store), but I am myself suing Apple for over their efforts to lock us out competing on iOS. https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/12/10/cydia…

What's the difference between "preventing" and "competing"?

Did Google ever block an app store from phones?

Re: Decreasing service fees on subscriptions to 15%

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's the cost for the channel. Except it's not. People don't download Uber or Netflix because of the app stores. Epic demonstrated unequivocally they could get installs without Google involved as an intermediary. The app store value at this point is singularly it their platform-specific monopolies, and the fact that you have no choice but to play ball to do business on mobile. > The real world equivalent is superma…

> People don't download Uber or Netflix because of the app stores Uber would never have existed without the App Store. > It's nothing like that It's exactly like that. That's where the business model comes from. It's a digital representation of the way physical stores interact with OEMs.

> Uber would never have existed without the App Store.

Why not? Because of Apple's monopoly on app installation on iOS?

Re: Decreasing service fees on subscriptions to 15%

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's the cost for the channel. Except it's not. People don't download Uber or Netflix because of the app stores. Epic demonstrated unequivocally they could get installs without Google involved as an intermediary. The app store value at this point is singularly it their platform-specific monopolies, and the fact that you have no choice but to play ball to do business on mobile. > The real world equivalent is superma…

> People don't download Uber or Netflix because of the app stores Uber would never have existed without the App Store. > It's nothing like that It's exactly like that. That's where the business model comes from. It's a digital representation of the way physical stores interact with OEMs.

> Uber would never have existed without the App Store.

Maybe not within smart phones, but the app store has nothing to do with the success of Uber aside from forced inclusion in the transaction.

Believe it or not, software went decades being successfully purchased and installed by customers before app stores came along. Even on the Blackberry.

Re: Decreasing service fees on subscriptions to 15%

#250
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people should be able to install anything they want without some unwanted middleman What “people” are you referring to? The millions of people, like yours truly, who’ve made the conscious decision to pay Apple because of their App Store model. I’m an engineer, I have a desktop and a laptop I can install whatever I want on. I’m ok with not doing that on my phone. In fact, I don’t want that experience on my phone. So…

I'm not going to pretend there's a choice on mobile because there's not, both Apple & Google are acting as they are part of the same company and with similar rules. it's just a duopoly without competition, I don't buy the illusion of competition. Going into the debate of Apple vs Google is already missing the point, both are part of the same mobile conglomerate. > I’m an engineer, I have a desktop and a laptop I can…

If there’s an unserved market need: you want it, society and the global economy needs it; then go compete in the market, create your own competitive alternative. No one is preventing you from doing that. The market will dictate how right you are.
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