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.NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

devblogs.microsoft.com

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Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#71

Post by enhray »

moogly wrote: post #48
creato wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has anything ever actually replaced VS? I've only ever used VS for hobby/side projects, and even 10 years ago it was leaps and bounds better than what I have to use for my professional day to day work now (code completion, debugger are the two things that I miss basically every day). The tools that I use now have these features, but they're such a joke in comparison. The code completion has no notion of "code", it's…

For many workloads (at least .NET), JetBrains Rider. For C/C++ on Windows, well, you have VS Code and also JetBrains CLion, but IMO CLion is surprisingly rougher than Rider, even though it's older. You can get stuff done though.

For C/C++ on Windows and Linux. CMake build support and cross-platform builds and debugging are available out of the box with Community version of VS.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#72

Post by enhray »

oaiey wrote: post #51
creato wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has anything ever actually replaced VS? I've only ever used VS for hobby/side projects, and even 10 years ago it was leaps and bounds better than what I have to use for my professional day to day work now (code completion, debugger are the two things that I miss basically every day). The tools that I use now have these features, but they're such a joke in comparison. The code completion has no notion of "code", it's…

VS Code and language servers have leveled the game a lot. Regular Editing is pretty much on par. Debugging and diagnostic they are still strong.

There's nothing "on par" when it comes to C/C++/C#, and these three languages are still quite big in non-web world.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#73

Post by quadrifoliate »

MauranKilom wrote: post #38

Maybe I'm naive, but I fully buy the explanation of "we decided to not have it in the OSS version due to constrained resources" (if I'm parsing the discussion correctly). That was evidently not the smartest move, but attributing it to malice is taking it quite a step further. Change my view.

It's not malice. Your non-technical boss who says "well, if we have 3 other developers developing that API with you, it should get it done in one fourth of the time, right?" is not malicious either. But this kind of a boss doesn't "get" it, and neither does Microsoft. They don't seriously understand the mindset behind an open source project, and I don't expect them to in the future either.

So I avoid all Microsoft technologies, especially the lock-in ones like Visual Studio and .NET. I recommend you do as well.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#74

Post by matkoniecz »

> we inadvertently ended up deleting the source code instead of just not invoking that code path.

Well, maybe it would be avoided if ability to review would not be blocked from start. And community would note it during code review.

(obviously, no one believes this explanation and we understand what was actual reason. And thanks to all - hopefully anonymous and which will stay anonymous as long as needed - Microsoft employees who gave real info to Verge)

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#75

Post by hughw »

enhray wrote: post #72
oaiey wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

VS Code and language servers have leveled the game a lot. Regular Editing is pretty much on par. Debugging and diagnostic they are still strong.

There's nothing "on par" when it comes to C/C++/C#, and these three languages are still quite big in non-web world.

I've built a ton of C++ in VS Code, and while not as exhaustive as VS, it's very good. You get used to living without Big Refactoring and it's fine.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#76

Post by cgio »

q-big wrote: post #56
bradfitz wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Original source: https://bonkersworld.net/organizational-charts

Update for Apple: https://bonkersworld.net/organizational-charts-update

Had to check the date on this. It looks surprisingly like their recent “unleashed” ads.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#77

Post by sbelskie »

oaiey wrote: post #29
oaiey wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key difference between the two situation is, that the vs code team does it juicy features as a secret project. Dotnet watch was developed, tested and licensed in the public and stripped out last second. VS Code behavior you can accept as a open core or commercial plugin thing. The other thing was just a theft.

I want to extend in this a bit: Scott, Damian, Scott, David, Rich, Immo ... If you read this: fight for a clear ahead of time separation of commercial and non commercial features. Many of us can understand that Microsoft still sells dev tools but we do not like bad communication and stuff taking away which have been there already (at the same time we also think that .NET can only become truly awesome when free tools…

The reason why I feel somewhat encouraged is because my understanding is that this exact group of people fighting to keep this in is why it was reverted. I have no idea who knew what when or how anyone would have reacted without public scrutiny but David Fowler has been hyping hot reload since at least May on Twitter and it seems obvious to me that he and many other team members were 100% behind the planned dotnet watch hot reload approach. Maybe public outcry gave them the ammunition to fight this fight, and I may be naive, but I have a hard time thinking that at least some of that group wasn’t against this decision from the beginning (though who knows if they even learned about it much in advance of it being public).

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#78

Post by vvanders »

hughw wrote: post #75
enhray wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing "on par" when it comes to C/C++/C#, and these three languages are still quite big in non-web world.

I've built a ton of C++ in VS Code, and while not as exhaustive as VS, it's very good. You get used to living without Big Refactoring and it's fine.

VSCode is still pretty sparse on the debugging side of things. I've tried to chase down heap corruption with it and the lack of data views, complex watch/breakpoints really limit it in that scenario.

CLion is getting there, it's not quite as good yet but was still much better than VSCode.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#79

Post by lambda_dn »

Microsoft are a lost company.

They fumbled the cell phone era They half heartedly entered the hardware business with poor results. They have a few golden gooses that could be disrupted at any time (Windows, Office).

The biggest asset is dotnet and if they fumble that they will go down hard.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#80

Post by j56no »

Even if “now” they listened, they still don’t understand. Developers don’t live and breath Windows and VS. MS continues to push Windows experience first. Look at the joke of VS for Mac…
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