U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts • Hacker News Board

Re: U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

#21

Post by abstractbill » Wed, Aug 17, 2011, 9:30 PM UTC

shazamjad wrote: post #19

andyking wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was a crown court case, which is even more concerning. Crown court is used for serious offences which require a punishment of more than six months in prison, so for a case such as this to get from arrest to multi-year crown court sentence in a week is hugely concerning. A case has to first be heard in magistrates' court and handed to crown court, so it will have been in the hands of Chester Crown Court for just…

I wouldn't feel for those having justice dealt to them, not one bit. They not only participated in the riots - but made an effort to promote them. As for the woman who accepted stolen goods from her flatmate - she deserved it. The right course of action would've been to advise her flatmate to turn herself in and return the goods, or actually call the police herself. She decides to go through the stolen goods, picking…

Harsh sentences like these will only serve to convince a large segment of the population that the system is unjust (and perhaps even that the riots were therefore a "good thing" (fight the system, etc, etc)).

Re: U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

#22

Post by AndyJPartridge » Wed, Aug 17, 2011, 9:39 PM UTC

nkh wrote: post #18

Can someone from the UK comment on if 4-year sentences are typically served to full term. I believe in America, you can be sentenced to 4 years and only end up doing a few months of the actual sentence.

You typically serve half of it over here, pending a hearing, "good behaviour" and any extra conditions a judge added.

(Which for these sort of offences are very unlikely to be applied.)

Re: U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

#23

Post by AndyJPartridge » Wed, Aug 17, 2011, 9:44 PM UTC

InclinedPlane wrote: post #17

rmc wrote: post #15

If you want to see how a police state starts, look at what's happening in the UK now.

More accurately, look at what's been happening over the last several decades. The population has been disarmed bit by bit, first various gun rights were taken away until ultimately all gun rights were taken away in a hysterical response to the Dunblane massacre. Then every weapon was targeted, knives, batons, everything. Even self-defense rights were taken away, if you use your own fists in your own home to defend yo…

FYI: We have been given the right to self defence in our own homes now.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13957587

Re: U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

#24

Post by InclinedPlane » Wed, Aug 17, 2011, 9:52 PM UTC

AndyJPartridge wrote: post #23

InclinedPlane wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More accurately, look at what's been happening over the last several decades. The population has been disarmed bit by bit, first various gun rights were taken away until ultimately all gun rights were taken away in a hysterical response to the Dunblane massacre. Then every weapon was targeted, knives, batons, everything. Even self-defense rights were taken away, if you use your own fists in your own home to defend yo…

FYI: We have been given the right to self defence in our own homes now. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13957587

Given the way British law works I'd wait until a few high-profile cases have established a firm precedent to get too excited. Nevertheless, compared to the situation previous this is somewhat of an improvement.

Re: U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

#25

Post by PhilRae » Wed, Aug 17, 2011, 9:56 PM UTC

abstractbill wrote: post #21

shazamjad wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't feel for those having justice dealt to them, not one bit. They not only participated in the riots - but made an effort to promote them. As for the woman who accepted stolen goods from her flatmate - she deserved it. The right course of action would've been to advise her flatmate to turn herself in and return the goods, or actually call the police herself. She decides to go through the stolen goods, picking…

Harsh sentences like these will only serve to convince a large segment of the population that the system is unjust (and perhaps even that the riots were therefore a "good thing" (fight the system, etc, etc)).

These people weren't fighting any 'system' or for any cause. They plainly saw an opportunity to steal, vandalise and ruin the lives of many hard-working, law-abiding citizens, under the so called 'protection' of the mob.

Hopefully this hard justice will serve as a warning that this simply will not be tolerated in our civil society. If anything, it actually emphasises how lenient the court system normally is, and I firmly believe that sentencing should always be this strict.

Re: U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

#26

Post by AndyJPartridge » Wed, Aug 17, 2011, 10:02 PM UTC

I'm a UK guy.

I won't argue that these sentences are disproportionate.

But is it what we need in response to this? I'd argue yes.

The spark for these "riots" was a gentleman who was killed during an arrest. Bad times, of course. Very bad times.

But it's important to understand that the details of /exactly/ what happened here are currently officially unknown. The official report has not been released.

On the back of this, groups of people all over the UK decided to go on organised shoplifting spree's. When asked by the media "Why" they said things like "To get back our taxes, innit." [SIC]

Perhaps a few, who are at the very least comfortable with criminal behaviour, need to be given these sorts of sentences - and then for the media to make it well known it's happened.

A deterrent. Unfortunate for those singled out for it, but perhaps one needed for the good of the whole society.

They looted charity shops for fucks sake. Parents supported the kids doing it.

Something had to be done. This was it.

Re: U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

#27

Post by Daniel_Newby » Wed, Aug 17, 2011, 10:06 PM UTC

shazamjad wrote: post #19

andyking wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was a crown court case, which is even more concerning. Crown court is used for serious offences which require a punishment of more than six months in prison, so for a case such as this to get from arrest to multi-year crown court sentence in a week is hugely concerning. A case has to first be heard in magistrates' court and handed to crown court, so it will have been in the hands of Chester Crown Court for just…

I wouldn't feel for those having justice dealt to them, not one bit. They not only participated in the riots - but made an effort to promote them. As for the woman who accepted stolen goods from her flatmate - she deserved it. The right course of action would've been to advise her flatmate to turn herself in and return the goods, or actually call the police herself. She decides to go through the stolen goods, picking…

Having witnessed first hand the devastation and destruction in Hackney - most small business owners who lost pretty much their whole lively hoods would state that the sentences being handed out aren't enough - and I whole heartedly agree.

How many of those small businessmen shook their heads but did nothing over happy slappers and countless other creeping failures of the rule of law? Civilizations don't fall because the barbarians get strong but because the middle class stops defending civility. If the yeomanry do not guard their liberty, they abdicate it.

I'll stop writing here. If I go on I will start quoting The Boondock Saints and lose all credibility.

Re: U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

#28

Post by Daniel_Newby » Wed, Aug 17, 2011, 10:15 PM UTC

PhilRae wrote: post #25

abstractbill wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Harsh sentences like these will only serve to convince a large segment of the population that the system is unjust (and perhaps even that the riots were therefore a "good thing" (fight the system, etc, etc)).

These people weren't fighting any 'system' or for any cause. They plainly saw an opportunity to steal, vandalise and ruin the lives of many hard-working, law-abiding citizens, under the so called 'protection' of the mob. Hopefully this hard justice will serve as a warning that this simply will not be tolerated in our civil society. If anything, it actually emphasises how lenient the court system normally is, and I fi…

Hopefully this hard justice will serve as a warning that this simply will not be tolerated in our civil society.

That warning is better served by preceding a potential riot with a few decades of prompt, strict, and small punishments for failures of civility. A person who knows that there will be consequences does not participate in a riot. Or at least it would be a polite English riot with the mob leaders passing out cucumber sandwiches.

... I firmly believe that sentencing should always be this strict.

Alas, punishing an impromptu mob for the arson of its most destructive member does not un-burn-down a buildingful of shops, and the thrill of seeing the mob railroaded might even encourage a career-criminal arsonist who knew to take precautions against being identified.

Re: U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

#29

Post by AndyJPartridge » Wed, Aug 17, 2011, 10:19 PM UTC

InclinedPlane wrote: post #24

AndyJPartridge wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI: We have been given the right to self defence in our own homes now. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13957587

Given the way British law works I'd wait until a few high-profile cases have established a firm precedent to get too excited. Nevertheless, compared to the situation previous this is somewhat of an improvement.

Indeed. The last high profile case didn't work out very well for the defender did it, but I guess that was largely due to the robber being shot in the back. [1]

I think the change is law is to help clarify this a little more. In reality, once the perps in this case dived out the window, they could have pulled weapons and started shooting themselves.

I'd sooner face jail than that possibility.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Martin_(farmer)

Re: U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts

#30

Post by dave1010uk » Wed, Aug 17, 2011, 10:19 PM UTC

AndyJPartridge wrote: post #26

I'm a UK guy. I won't argue that these sentences are disproportionate. But is it what we need in response to this? I'd argue yes. The spark for these "riots" was a gentleman who was killed during an arrest. Bad times, of course. Very bad times. But it's important to understand that the details of /exactly/ what happened here are currently officially unknown. The official report has not been released. On the back of t…

Prison sentences, fines, comunity service, etc are already a deterrent to crime. These deterrents (and punishments) are considered proportionate to the crime by the judge/jury. I see no reason to single out rioting to be different, apart from emotional ones.