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Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

reuters.com

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Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#81

Post by rsynnott »

trhway wrote: post #16
the-dude wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it is a state lab. What are you gonna do? Invade our capital?

that is kind of the point - that they couldn't compel a private company doing business in their country and did the cracking instead.

Well, more precisely, they didn't trust that the private company was providing everything, presumably:

> The NFI found that Tesla had complied with data requests from the Dutch authorities, but left out a lot of data that could have proven useful.

They asked for data, were given data, when they looked further they found it was incomplete.

I don't think there's anything particularly weird about this; if you're investigating something, you probably shouldn't uncritically trust the object of your investigation.

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#82

Post by KarlKemp »

the-dude wrote: post #6
trhway wrote: post #2

no DMCA in Netherlands?

Well, it is a state lab. What are you gonna do? Invade our capital?

Governments are bound by law, at least in democracies. There are thousands of cases in court by citizen and companies trying to, for example, overturn some decision (i. e. building permits, asylum, road construction, ... really anything), and they are frequently successful.

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#83

Post by KarlKemp »

mellavora wrote: post #46
rocqua wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have so few bears here, so it's really hard to find bear-arms.

But you should still have the right to arm the bears if you find a bear. Maybe this is why you have such a bear shortage?

No, the beer shortage is in the UK.

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#84

Post by jeroenhd »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #48

I wish there were more information about how they were able to "decrypt" the data. I put that in quotes because often times journalists or laypeople don't differentiate between a file format that is just compressed or obfuscated in some way, and true encryption. After all, it would be trivial for Tesla to provide essentially unbreakable encryption: just encode all the stored data with a public key where only Tesla ha…

The paper about it [0] calls it "reverse engineering and evaluation" to the word "decrypt" was probably used wrongly.

[0]: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/355202701_Reverse_e...

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#85

Post by kortex »

bumbada wrote: post #32
faebi wrote: post #21

What if not all sensor data is accurate or reliable? For example their new cars have no radar and therefore the distance is just an assumption of the AI model and can be wrong. It would be pretty bad to rely on unreliable data for the justice system. If they want to use all data I assume some form of interpretation should be done by the Tesla to avoid false positives or false negatives. Especially in crashes where FS…

Radar data is also an assumption, way weaker than cameras. Cars radar sensors are not the F22 ones, they are very simple, limited and it is not the sky in which metallic objects are foreign and there is empty space everywhere. The world on earth surface is full of metallic objects with very complex shapes and reflections everywhere(and you have military safety standards, my uncle got cancer(and died) after working wi…

Did you mean single pixel? Even with a single color, a camera provides a wealth of information. Radar is not quite a single pixel - there is speed, phase, and timing information - but it's much closer to a single pixel than to a monochrome camera. The driving radar I mean. The kit on used in aerospace sweeps out an area so it's more like a camera in the actual output.

Side note: Sorry about your uncle, but I do wish to point out, radar is non ionizing and extremely unlikely to cause mutation. What is more likely carcinogenic is stuff like degreasers, paints, fluids, and open burn pits the military likes to use.

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#86

Post by warp »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #48

I wish there were more information about how they were able to "decrypt" the data. I put that in quotes because often times journalists or laypeople don't differentiate between a file format that is just compressed or obfuscated in some way, and true encryption. After all, it would be trivial for Tesla to provide essentially unbreakable encryption: just encode all the stored data with a public key where only Tesla ha…

Looks like they published their code and tools here:

https://github.com/NetherlandsForensicInstitute/teslalogs

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#87

Post by relativ575 »

gzer0 wrote: post #54
tdrdt wrote: post #41

I just read some Dutch news sources to get some more context. Some things to know: Tesla hands over all requested data in case of an investigation. But only the requested data. Because we now know what data is stored more data can and will be requested in the future. The crash was caused by the driver because he thought lane assistance was turned on but only adaptive cruise control was turned on. This caused the vehi…

Why would the request for "any and all data" not yield ALL of the data in the first place? Is it because you must request specific data? Is making a request for all data from the manufacturer not allowed? Am I missing something here?

It wasn't a request for "all and any data". From the article:

> Tesla however only supplies a specific subset of signals, only the ones requested, for a specific timeframe, whereas the log files contain all the recorded signals

Tesla provided exactly what was requested and nothing more. Now that the government knows what is more in the data they can request that too, even if it's irrelevant to the investigations.

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#88

Post by mft_ »

wil421 wrote: post #77
mft_ wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

…and multiple audio cues. Not being facetious, but aren’t audio, visual (=the dashboard), and touch (=control forces) the only ways a human is able to interact with a car? They could make the engagement or not of FSD more obvious in the UI, and maybe have spoken alerts? (Although at the moment there are so many audio alerts in a Tesla, I think it’s approaching saturation - the point where if everything is an alarm, t…

The Problem with the model 3 and Y are the lack of a screen in front of the driver. All of the ACC, Lane Assist, and self parking (can’t be engaged from the steering wheel) in my Jeep are displayed right in front of me. I don’t have to look away to see what’s turned on. My wife’s BMW is similar and it also has a HUD that displays everything. The driver never has to turn away from the road to figure out what’s happeni…

From similar discussions, this seems to be binary - compared to a 'normal' dashboard (which while central isn't in the driver's eye-line whilst watching the road, is often dark or lacking in contrast, and can be obscured by the wheel depending on the driver's size and seat settings) people either love or hate the M3/Y's screen location. I get on fine with it (and flicking my eyes there is arguably better than my other cars' 'traditional' dash location) but others don't.

Agree that a well-designed HUD might be the best of all worlds; interesting how very few cars implement this, despite it having been technologically straightforward for decades.

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#89

Post by upofadown »

ArekDymalski wrote: post #57
hutzlibu wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, sadly there is no open source car avaiable (I think some designs exist, coming from univerisies, but nothing you could buy anywhere) I suppose consumers, tuners and repair shops would love it. But I do not see any big company ever going into that direction. It would be interesting, how it could avoid the patent madness. I assume EVERYTHING with cars is patented.

>But I do not see any big company ever going into that direction. IBM did that with PC architecture and it had profound impact on technology, business and world as a whole I believe.

Which, interestingly enough, was forced on IBM in the form of a right to repair/interface provision in an anti-trust consent decree targeting mainframes.

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#90

Post by xvilka »

MrDresden wrote: post #30

Frankly I feel that for this kind of investication (car crashes and accidents) the manufacturer should be required to hand over all data relevant to the investigation. On device logs are probably the most relevant data you could get in these cases. That this lab decided to try to decipher the data, and found troves of it that wasn't known to exist before, speaks to how the relationship must be. They didn't trust Tesl…

> In my humble opinion, any region should force all manufacturer of cars that will be sold in that region to hand over data (or methods by extracting the data)

This is precisely what is required from Tesla in China.

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