An enormous thread on alleged Google Facebook collusion • Hacker News Board

Re: An enormous thread on alleged Google Facebook collusion

#91

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 9:14 AM UTC

ttiurani wrote: post #38

torben-friis wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if the behavior of the largest tech companies is a cause or an effect of their size. Is unethical behavior pushing companies to the top of the food chain? Or is it that other companies feel more ethical simply because they don't have as many chances to engage in unethical behavior? If it's the latter, all the push to split the companies is for nothing and we should just consider "ethics at scale" to be an un…

It's about shareholder value added. A public company or a VC-backed private company can focus on making creative nice widgets and services for only a limited time before growth inevitably stalls. After that (unless the management can and wants to screw over their owners) they will need to look elsewhere for more profits.

It's about capitalism, which rots the spirit of everything it touches.

Money is the most dangerous behaviour-altering drug.

It shouldn't be a surprise that a system which rewards sociopathy and discourages kindness and empathy keeps generating sociopathic behaviours.

Re: An enormous thread on alleged Google Facebook collusion

#92

Post by p49k » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 9:15 AM UTC

londons_explore wrote: post #69

secondcoming wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They rejected bids with higher bid prices to prefer their own inventory. The auction was rigged.

If there was even a single instance of that, a bidder would know... Every losing bidder gets information about the winning bid. Nobody is saying "I bid $1.00, yet the winning bid was $0.90". You could almost argue that the auction time limits lead to this case "I would have bid a dollar, but you finished the auction before I could say that!". But the time limits are 100 milliseconds plus, which in computer terms is a…

You only have access to non-Google bids, which makes it impossible to have enough information to know if the auction is unfair. Google is the final arbiter of what ad gets shown, Google does not disclose its own bid if it's the winner, and you have to trust Google that it did not improperly advantage itself in the auction (which the complaint reveals that it did in fact advantage itself).

Re: An enormous thread on alleged Google Facebook collusion

#93

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 9:18 AM UTC

mrweasel wrote: post #24

polytely wrote: post #10

Google seriously needs to be broken up into small pieces or disolved entirely. Their leadership just cannot be be trusted and the internet would be better off without them around.

Unlike Microsoft, where at least some of the business units could do pretty well on their own, if the company was broken up, I doubt the same would be true for Google. Other than search and ads, I doubt other part would do particular well. Breaking up Google would result in a lot of people losing their job. I’m not arguing that you’re wrong in the idea of breaking up Google, but I doubt it will happen.

Not just Google. The entire adtech, social media, and personal data surveillance industry.

Effectively it's already one giant company operating under multiple nominal mega-brands.

Re: An enormous thread on alleged Google Facebook collusion

#94

Post by globular-toast » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 9:20 AM UTC

willvarfar wrote: post #5

I remember when google was the shining light of “be nice company” that we all dreamed of working for, at odds with the evil that was M$crosoft. And, from reading all the “why I left google” posts and hearing about them leaving China, the old google of 20 or even just 10 years ago was the good or even just a better google. With how google went from “do no evil” to this, with how Facebook has always been profits over e…

It's almost like there is nothing special about Microsoft. The thing Google and Microsoft have in common is they are large organisations of humans.

So maybe the answer is to work for yourself or a small organisation.

Re: An enormous thread on alleged Google Facebook collusion

#95

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 9:22 AM UTC

rossmohax wrote: post #67

How exactly Google killed header bidding (routing of inventory to multiple exchanges)? Is it because publishers don't interact with exchange directly, but engage via sell side brokers, which google bought and changed they way the route orders?

[deleted]

Re: An enormous thread on alleged Google Facebook collusion

#96

Post by pyrale » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 9:25 AM UTC

I wonder how many such scandals before people in office accept the logical conclusion that the only way to deal with this is to use the Standard Oil method.

Re: An enormous thread on alleged Google Facebook collusion

#97

Post by tdeck » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 9:33 AM UTC

melomal wrote: post #85

willvarfar wrote: post #5

I remember when google was the shining light of “be nice company” that we all dreamed of working for, at odds with the evil that was M$crosoft. And, from reading all the “why I left google” posts and hearing about them leaving China, the old google of 20 or even just 10 years ago was the good or even just a better google. With how google went from “do no evil” to this, with how Facebook has always been profits over e…

It's amazing that when you consider most tech companies based their entire perks strategy off the back of free food, beers, playgrounds, sleeping pods etc all in the name of keeping workings in the build at all times a la Facebook and Google. A little like the casinos tricks where you will never see a clock or the time inside one. There's a slight tilt on all pavements in Las Vegas that slowly push you towards the bu…

People always being this up and I think they're right to be skeptical, but the Google office I worked in (SF) was practically dead before 10 AM and after 7 PM. I never saw much evidence that any sizable group was working extra long hours. Some people hung around for dinner at 6:30 but most left before or right after grabbing food. I didn't spend enough time in Mountain View to form an informed opinion but there was definitely a big group leaving between 5 and 6:30.

Re: An enormous thread on alleged Google Facebook collusion

#98

Post by globular-toast » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 9:35 AM UTC

blntechie wrote: post #70

polytely wrote: post #10

Google seriously needs to be broken up into small pieces or disolved entirely. Their leadership just cannot be be trusted and the internet would be better off without them around.

From a staunch opposer to government regulation in tech 4-5 years back, I have turned into someone who will cheer a break up of these big tech companies.

Everyone needs time to grow up. I too started out thinking it was all so simple and the "free market" would take care of everything etc. Then your world view grows. Your list of "known unknowns" dwarfs your list of knowns. You become more pragmatic. It is clear to me now that some level of top-down coordination is necessary for success. Even national-level coordination is not going to be enough, though. It now needs to be at a global level.

Re: An enormous thread on alleged Google Facebook collusion

#99

Post by okusername » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 9:35 AM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #20

willvarfar wrote: post #5

I remember when google was the shining light of “be nice company” that we all dreamed of working for, at odds with the evil that was M$crosoft. And, from reading all the “why I left google” posts and hearing about them leaving China, the old google of 20 or even just 10 years ago was the good or even just a better google. With how google went from “do no evil” to this, with how Facebook has always been profits over e…

None of them, I am quite old to have learned in a capitalist society it is always about the money. Company mottos, cultural values, we are family, and all the marketing garbage that they sell for new hires to feel good is just that, plain marketing. When things get though, the "values" hardly matter to get deals or fire people.

Yeah and communist society is about who has the best connections to the people in the party who decide who gets what. And socialist societies are about not making too much money because you'll lose the subsidies.

Re: An enormous thread on alleged Google Facebook collusion

#100

Post by secondcoming » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 9:36 AM UTC

londons_explore wrote: post #69

secondcoming wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They rejected bids with higher bid prices to prefer their own inventory. The auction was rigged.

If there was even a single instance of that, a bidder would know... Every losing bidder gets information about the winning bid. Nobody is saying "I bid $1.00, yet the winning bid was $0.90". You could almost argue that the auction time limits lead to this case "I would have bid a dollar, but you finished the auction before I could say that!". But the time limits are 100 milliseconds plus, which in computer terms is a…

There are caveats. From Google's protobuf file itself [0]

    // If the bid won the auction, this is the price paid in your account
    // currency. If the bid participated in the auction but was out-bid, this
    // is the CPM that should have been exceeded in order to win. This is not
    // set if the bid was filtered prior to the auction, if the publisher or
    // winning bidder has opted out of price feedback or if your account has
    // opted out of sharing winning prices with other bidders. For first-price
    // auctions, minimum_bid_to_win is populated instead of this field.
    optional int64 cpm_micros = 4;

I don't know if Google's bidder will populate this field. Even if they do send this data, there's no way you can tell if it's faked or not.

They could also maybe get around this by setting up a PMP for Google's own inventory thereby allowing them to accept bids that are lower than Open Market bids.

[0] https://developers.google.com/authorized-buyers/rtb/download...