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Reasons to switch from Windows to Linux

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Re: Reasons to switch from Windows to Linux

#331

Post by ddek »

smoldesu wrote: post #301
ddek wrote: post #152

I've really given up on the operating system debates. I don't think it's a very interesting subject, because I think the individual constraints are more important than general 'UX' concerns. My personal computer usage is about 60% web browsing, 10% coding, and 30% AoE2. The game really doesn't run well through proton, at least not enough to play competitively, so I'm kinda locked onto Windows. I think it's stupid to…

FWIW, AoE2 appears to have Gold compatibility[0] with Proton, meaning you can expect a Windows-like experience when launching it with Steam. Maybe it's time to give it another look? [0] https://www.protondb.com/app/221380

It runs well enough to play SP, but the framer are is much lower and the MP laggier.

Re: Reasons to switch from Windows to Linux

#332

Post by pjmlp »

signal11 wrote: post #154
codeflo wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OTOH, 11 is the first version of Windows where Microsoft actively tells a large portion of their userbase that they don’t want them to run it. I’m not a believer in “the year of the Linux desktop” either, but those insane policies around fictitious hardware requirements surely must have some impact on market share?

> I’m not a believer in “the year of the Linux desktop” either, but those insane policies around fictitious hardware requirements surely must have some impact on market share? I will give them (some) benefit of the doubt -- they probably are using Windows 11's more stringent hardware requirements as an instrument to drive increased security in the PC space. New PCs will want to be advertised as Windows 11 compatible,…

Developing countries, lower income groups are more likely to use pirated copies of Windows bought on a street bazaar than bothering with Linux.

Re: Reasons to switch from Windows to Linux

#333

Post by pjmlp »

ethanpil wrote: post #183
pjmlp wrote: post #75

Yet another one of thoses guides. When XP came out everyone was going to go GNU/Linux, due to Toy'R us interface. When Vista came out everyone was going to go GNU/Linux, due to DX 10 drivers and hardware requirements. When 8.x came out everyone was going to go GNU/Linux, due to tablet UI. When 10 came out everyone was going to go GNU/Linux, due to telemetry. Now Windows 11 came out, naturally everyone is going to go…

... when Windows 12 comes out it will be half GNU/Linux

Might be, but that will be because Microsoft wants it, with their own set of rules, just like Google, not because the community managed to achieve anything.

And just like Android and ChromeOS, don't expect Windows 12/Linux apps to be available on GNU/Linux distributions.

Re: Reasons to switch from Windows to Linux

#334

Post by pjmlp »

makeitdouble wrote: post #229
pjmlp wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still good enough to power about 85% of desktop computers worldwide, one games console and game streaming service, all of which also need developers.

It's closer to 75%: https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide...

With Linux topping 2.3, what an achievement in 20 years, since XP was released (ChromeOS doesn't count it is a browser).

Re: Reasons to switch from Windows to Linux

#335

Post by pjmlp »

danShumway wrote: post #316
pjmlp wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still good enough to power about 85% of desktop computers worldwide, one games console and game streaming service, all of which also need developers.

I don't understand what you're getting at. When you develop for Xbox, do you connect a keyboard to your Xbox and launch Visual Studio directly on the console? What do the Xbox or XCloud have to do with developer marketshare? They're targets, not development platforms. Are you arguing that the Stackoverflow stats are wrong?

Actually you can do that with a DevKit, yes.

Stackoverflow stats reflect the vocal audience that bothers answering their surveys.

That is the problem with statistics, when there is a chicken and two people, each has eaten half.

Re: Reasons to switch from Windows to Linux

#336

Post by hdjjhhvvhga »

md8z wrote: post #326
hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is clear that we have completely different perspectives. What is a "minor detail" for you is a decisive factor for me. I happily enable the Popularity Contest in Debian because they ask and because I trust them. I deliberately block all possible telemetry on Windows because they don't ask and because I don't trust them. You know what is a crucial difference? I can take my Linux box and inspect all packets coming i…

I wasn't talking about my perspective or your perspective though, this would be the perspective of the majority of Ubuntu users and Windows users. (Disclosure: I don't use either of them, I use Debian and I don't have popcon installed) I'm not sure what you mean you can't sniff packets coming from a Windows machine, Wireshark should just work there as it does on Linux.

I'm not talking about being able to sniff packets but being able to to (1) understand what they are used for, (2) block them all on the same machine reliably, that is, including all communication to/from MS servers. In other words, being able to control the system I own or not.

Re: Reasons to switch from Windows to Linux

#337

Post by hdjjhhvvhga »

md8z wrote: post #330
fouric wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In this case, yes. No, not in this case. It does not matter that Ubuntu and KDE are the two biggest desktop Linux vendors, because (1) their telemetry (and, more generally, spying) are in a different league from Windows', and (2) users are capable of choosing to use another distro - a luxury you don't get with Windows. > This is a minor detail and I don't think it actually matters. For almost everyone, except possi…

"their telemetry (and, more generally, spying) are in a different league from Windows', and (2) users are capable of choosing to use another distro" I just find this to be not convincing, sorry. It doesn't matter that it's in a different league, they're always going to be different because the requirements are different. And it doesn't really matter that users can switch to a different distro either, what seems to be…

> I get what you're saying but this is one of those things that just doesn't work when it's opt-in.

So be it. We have had many operating systems without telemetry at all. If this is the will of users, they should respect it. Instead, you get two buttons: (1) give us everything, (2) give us the things we care about most. There is no third option "give us nothing" so people are downloading third party packages from various sources just to block that, possibly breaking parts of their system. And then MS changes things so it becomes an even worse mess. This is the very definition of being user-hostile - just because they can.

Re: Reasons to switch from Windows to Linux

#338

Post by makeitdouble »

pjmlp wrote: post #334
makeitdouble wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's closer to 75%: https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide...

With Linux topping 2.3, what an achievement in 20 years, since XP was released (ChromeOS doesn't count it is a browser).

ChromeOS is a lot more than a glorified browser these days. Android apps are a big part of the experience, and the linux subsystem is one toggle away to runs alongside.

The only real show stoppers left are the usually wimpy hardware it comes with and the lack of polish, but otherwise it has come a long way. I would completely consider switching to it instead of linux if I had a Dell laptop for instance.

Re: Reasons to switch from Windows to Linux

#339

Post by md8z »

hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #337
md8z wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"their telemetry (and, more generally, spying) are in a different league from Windows', and (2) users are capable of choosing to use another distro" I just find this to be not convincing, sorry. It doesn't matter that it's in a different league, they're always going to be different because the requirements are different. And it doesn't really matter that users can switch to a different distro either, what seems to be…

> I get what you're saying but this is one of those things that just doesn't work when it's opt-in. So be it. We have had many operating systems without telemetry at all. If this is the will of users, they should respect it. Instead, you get two buttons: (1) give us everything, (2) give us the things we care about most. There is no third option "give us nothing" so people are downloading third party packages from var…

What is missing here is that no other method to collect feedback and product analytics has been proposed. It is impossible to make decisions at a company the size of Microsoft without that type of information. All the larger companies are doing it for this reason. Opt-out telemetry is the easiest and cheapest way to get it. Most Linux desktops don't have to deal with the problem because they aren't that big, and the operating systems that didn't have it at all were built for a different era. You're framing this as something being about the will of the users or being "user-hostile" vs not, but that's honestly not important here, this is a very real technical problem. Overwhelmingly it seems that Windows users (and some Linux users, definitely Android users if you count those as "Linux") are fine with the current state of things.

In some places it seems that people did care, for example the GDPR is a step in the right direction, but there seems to be about zero political will to do anything like that in the United States. And even that doesn't really change the state of telemetry in Windows that much.

Re: Reasons to switch from Windows to Linux

#340

Post by md8z »

hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #336
md8z wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't talking about my perspective or your perspective though, this would be the perspective of the majority of Ubuntu users and Windows users. (Disclosure: I don't use either of them, I use Debian and I don't have popcon installed) I'm not sure what you mean you can't sniff packets coming from a Windows machine, Wireshark should just work there as it does on Linux.

I'm not talking about being able to sniff packets but being able to to (1) understand what they are used for, (2) block them all on the same machine reliably, that is, including all communication to/from MS servers. In other words, being able to control the system I own or not.

Well there are a number of ways to set up a firewall, I think you can install from a number of them, and it's also trivial to use a raspberry pi for that. Can you mention which packets you're having trouble understanding? I may not be able to answer, but someone skilled with Windows probably could.
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