Willingness to look stupid • Hacker News Board

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#771

Post by cutemonster » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 10:04 PM UTC

lcrmorin wrote: post #735

andrewla wrote: post #338

This has happened to me frequently at my current company. I get pulled into a meeting about something that I have no context on because it touches my area of expertise, and the discussions have apparently been stalling out. I brace myself to be the idiot. I'm going to waste everyone's time asking questions that everyone knows the answer to, and I just got looped in, so everyone's going to feel like they need to walk…

I work for the government so really know this feeling. I have a funny exemple in mind. Months ago I got pulled into a meeting because 'I know data'. The phrasing alone was a red flag. Lots of high level people in the meeting. Like 10 people, each one payed at least twice as much as me. The goal is to transfer data that is too big for our 'standard pipelines'. They are discussing building a whole new pipeline, contrac…

I wonder if they felt that your idea made them look stupid / incompetent. (Which it seems they were)

Maybe then they didn't want you in the meetings?

(Whilst the idea was good so that's what they did in the end)

(200 Go = GB I suppose)

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#772

Post by sbierwagen » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 10:19 PM UTC

cxr wrote: post #720

sbierwagen wrote: post #619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also funny that he didn't even put it in the post. I'm not sure it's because of length restrictions, since the post is 4,495 words long. Maybe he wanted to keep under 4,500. Also perplexing: footnote 2 mentions the car tire paradox. (Traction is determined by weight and coefficient of traction, and those two things only. So why do high performance cars have wider tires, which shouldn't make a difference? Because…

> now he has a trapped prior,[1] and any time someone says "CSS" to him he thinks, "ugh, that awful garbage which ruined my site" and refuses to touch it. Do you know that's true? Are you extrapolating his mental activity from a limited set of facts?

Yes.

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#773

Post by perl4ever » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 10:30 PM UTC

gmac wrote: post #719

perl4ever wrote: post #572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's "self deprecation", depreciation is something different. I'm not sure what kind of audience you think it works on. I tend to get (particularly from people under 40) one of two inappropriate reactions to reflexive self deprecation - either exaggerated sympathy for my plight, or treating it as an exposed weakness to attack.

I think some of this might be cultural. For example, I think self-deprecation may be in general more widely appreciated in the UK than the US (though perhaps this is gradually changing). I’m reminded of Arthur Dent (British) in the Hitchhiker’s Guide telling Zaphod, modestly, “oh, it was nothing” about something great he did, and Zaphod responding along the lines of “oh, it was nothing? In that case forget it then”,…

Well, I'm American, and there were definitely bits in that book that totally failed to translate for me. For instance, "Ford Prefect" seemed like a perfectly normal name - IMO the American edition should've changed it to "Ford Escort".

But being self-deprecating was not one of them. I feel like I'm surrounded by Zaphods, or something, and I'm not sure when it happened.

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#774

Post by Zababa » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 11:42 PM UTC

cutemonster wrote: post #763

Zababa wrote: post #708

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, I think that depends on where you are in the exploration/confirmation spectrum. I don't really think about it when doing it, but usually I use open ended questions for stuff I don't know, and yes/no questions to link things to my existing mental model. That also depends on the person. With some people open ended questions are great, with others yes/no are better. I'll also add that yes/no questions are often f…

Maybe appending "... Or something else?" to a limited choices question can avoid the problem GP @indymike mentioned, whilst still generally be quick Is it raining or something else outdoors? Do you like Vi or Emacs or something else? Do you want to hang out for a coffee or something else?

Usually I don't think it's necessary. My yes/no questions are something like "Okay, so we need to put some more info into that file since that's what exported to the billing database, is that correct?". When I don't know something, I try yes/no questions at first. If I get "yes", then it's resolved. If I get a no, I will ask open-ended questions to explore the subect. Once I think I have a correct mental model ready, I will ask yes/no questions to validate it. If I get a no, then it's the cycle again.

For the "Is it raining outside", I honestly don't know anyone that would just tell me "no" when there's hail outside. For the "Do you like Vi or Emacs or something else?", it would be "What text editor/IDE do you use? Why?". "Do you like Vi or Emacs" by itself is not a yes/no question, it's a "what box are you in" question. For "Do you want to hang out for a coffee or something else?", that would be something like "Do you want to hang out at ?".

An important part for me is that in yes/no questions, no are supposed to be the exception. In my mind, when I ask them, it's not a 50/50 chance. It's more of a 80/20. If it was a 50/50 chance, that means my mental model is not precise enough.

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#775

Post by cjalmeida » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 11:55 PM UTC

lcrmorin wrote: post #735

andrewla wrote: post #338

This has happened to me frequently at my current company. I get pulled into a meeting about something that I have no context on because it touches my area of expertise, and the discussions have apparently been stalling out. I brace myself to be the idiot. I'm going to waste everyone's time asking questions that everyone knows the answer to, and I just got looped in, so everyone's going to feel like they need to walk…

I work for the government so really know this feeling. I have a funny exemple in mind. Months ago I got pulled into a meeting because 'I know data'. The phrasing alone was a red flag. Lots of high level people in the meeting. Like 10 people, each one payed at least twice as much as me. The goal is to transfer data that is too big for our 'standard pipelines'. They are discussing building a whole new pipeline, contrac…

The problem was throwing the solution at their faces like that. The key to looking stupid is not making others look stupid.

There are ways to create roundabouts so that the solution looks “elegant” but only after “hard thought”.

There’s also the risk that the simple solution has some real limitation (eg. some regulatory issue) then you’ll will indeed look stupid

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#776

Post by perl4ever » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 12:57 AM UTC

Gareth321 wrote: post #714

perl4ever wrote: post #572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's "self deprecation", depreciation is something different. I'm not sure what kind of audience you think it works on. I tend to get (particularly from people under 40) one of two inappropriate reactions to reflexive self deprecation - either exaggerated sympathy for my plight, or treating it as an exposed weakness to attack.

It's all about reading the room. If you're talking to a hostile crowd you're not going to expose weakness. I hope that most of these internal alignment meetings are not hostile, and are instead conducted with the intent to best deliver value to the business. In these instances, I have found comments like "I'm sorry to ask a basic question here..." work well to explain that I probably don't have as much domain experie…

"I'm sorry to ask a basic question here..."

Sure...but I think that an insight that I've gained is that this is an example of a formula which doesn't really communicate or explain all the things you mention. You aren't sorry, you don't know that your question is basic, and you don't think you're wasting peoples' time.

In effect, it's a "pointer" to a bunch of things, so it only works with people that are conditioned to such things and have them in their memory. One of the things you mention, "not trying to school them" sounds to me like deference, and I don't think deference can be quickly established without a formula. Like a salute, you have to do something arbitrary in a mutually understood way.

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#777

Post by hipjiveguy » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 1:37 AM UTC

The problem is that there are always problems.

Many look at a problem as a frustating situation, and wish it would go away.

That's what "they think I'm stupid" is mostly about.

Most people just want things to work, which is understandable and reasonable, but not rational. It's wishful thinking, that has no action or teeth.

In reality, constant change and development will always bring about frustration.

The true problem is accepting that you can't control everything.

But after realizing that, pretend that you are in control.

Be ok with the results, no matter what's the ultimate solution.

ie. Ignore what you can't control, and BE YOURSELF.

BUT, listen to your elders.

Listen for at least 3 months. Think about it. If you're still willing to listen to their advice, but don't want to take it, go slowly forward, and live your life.

The next generation is always unfathomable to their parents, but you need to respect, and listen, for they truly do know things you don't know, but the reverse is true as well.

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#778

Post by NiceWayToDoIT » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 3:53 AM UTC

b3morales wrote: post #475

NiceWayToDoIT wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is measure of time, for author it looks simple to put everything in few words instead of having long explanation, I find this typical in IT, where my coworkers all the time trying to compress explanation in fewest words possible. Maybe laziness or type of optimization, but usually back fires as other people ask you multiple questions, arising from their own point of view.

That doesn't sound like backfiring to me. The hardest part of explaining something complex is matching it to the recipient's existing frame of reference. Letting them lead the explanation by asking questions can be an effective way for them to fit the new information into their current understanding.

> The hardest part of explaining something complex is matching it to the recipient's existing frame of reference.

Nicely said, I was trying to say that significant number of us is quite bad at it. And on the other hand, if frames are completely different, first compressed explanation looks like "noise noise word noise noise ...". On the other hand, often I see people struggling to start explaining as they know they will loose 30 min of time just to get to basics, so saying "I need computer in smallest box" - can be translated to "I want you to trust me and not bore me with you daily sale's pitch script you have learned by cart, I do not have time explain, I just need what I want not what you want to recommend me, unlike other customers I do not need your assistance I just need you to give me what I want. If customer is always right, just give me what I want, and I will make a purchase and you can move to the next customer."

Sometimes I think that this inpatient arose from search engines, where you type at most 3 words and you get your 10 results you were searching for. So, I assume it is reflected how we communicate with other fellow humans, demanding immediate results instead of 2 way communication.

We can argue it is rude, but for person who built his strong will over years in a hard way, attempt of manipulation and selling is also rude and intruding.

I do not have you ever been to Turkey or Greece where you have these shop owners who are literally trying to drag you in to the shop so you can buy something. For them it is like a ritual or the game, but if you do not want to be part of that theater show, you will find it very annoying.

In many Balkan countries they will ask you multiple times to eat or drink, and polite answer is "I cannot" but if you give that answer it is basically conversation starter for "Why? Are you ok? Is there something wrong...", it is part of social game to continue conversation. If you answer "I don't want to" although it is technically most correct, you will be showered with responses as "that is rude", "we will not poison you", "why is something wrong with my food", "why are you angry at me" ... and all you wanted to say is "I do not need any food or drink at this time as my body does not needed it, and I am perfectly content with my energy and liquid levels" :)

So, for many technical persons, who live most of their live in their own head, trying to juggle multiple ideas and resolve who knows what, small talk can be a major annoyance.

And I do not want to start with "this is secret project idea I am working on, I should not share it with anyone, someone may steal my idea ..." and everything along those lines...

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#779

Post by cratermoon » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 5:37 AM UTC

All the talk in the comments on this post about how smart people ask stupid questions and how great it is to ask 'why' and explore assumptions kind of feels a bit off, and I think I know why.

Over on another danluu post thread about productivity, I kept asking why it was assumed that one had to maximize productivity and go fast as a prerequisite for having leisure time. But no matter how I asked why it was asserted that leisure is dependent on productivity and why relaxing is predicated on first clearing some bar of an acceptable amount of work, nobody really wanted to examine that. It was just taken as a given. One response even shut down further discussion with "this isn't a philosophical discussion".

So it seems to me that it's really only considered ok to ask stupid questions and look stupid within a framework of what's acceptably 'stupid'. But probing into the underlying assumptions themselves is not an acceptable kind of stupid.

Which leads to my stupid question: who determines, and how, what the acceptable limits of "stupid" are? And how are those norms communicated and enforced?

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#780

Post by rStar » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 5:55 AM UTC

sharkweek wrote: post #370

mywittyname wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the best people I've ever worked with used this approach. "I'm going to ask stupid questions now." and "Just so I'm understanding the problem, ." were two phrases she used all the time . I am surprised at how difficult it has been to emulate her technique. Feeling comfortable asking the obvious questions is one half of the battle, but the other, more difficult half, is knowing what obvious questions to ask. Mo…

VP in my org does this, and it really disarms the room. She’s big on that exact phrase of “this could be a really stupid question, but…” She’s also really good about making sure other people are rewarded for doing the same by reassuring someone asking what might be a dumb question as, “that’s a a great question and I’m sure others were wondering the same…” before responding. Great leadership, IMO.

fuck that it’s salesmanship, and salesmen make poor leaders.