Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Best way to host a website for 500 years?

news.ycombinator.com

511–520 of 825 posts

Re: Ask HN: Best way to host a website for 500 years?

#511

Other comments have given ways to physically archive the webpage. Continually hosting it is a much trickier endeavor. Beyond just keeping the servers up, technologies will shift such that eventually html webpages, servers that talk using tcp/ip, datacenters that connect via fiber cables, etc will all be deprecated. That said, if we have a very liberal definition of the word "website" to include any successor technolo…

Ah, someone beat me to it. I was going to suggest one of the ancient universities with 800+ year traditions, on the grounds that even once the money dried up they might continue to host the website out of sheer force of habit.

Re: Ask HN: Best way to host a website for 500 years?

#512
post #16

How do you know what the internet will look like in 500 years? Sites from 20 years ago are broken, you can expect that unless you’re using plain text and html that standards will change in 500 years and people will not be able to access your site. Then there’s issues with domains. You’d have to setup a trust and again assume we will still be using domains in 500 years. If you use something like S3 then you’ll have to…

Sites which were carefully designed are not broken, and I think that is a good starting point when designing with longevity in mind.

Five hundred years is a long time, but I think it's reasonable to try to design a site that could last, for example, 25 years, because you can already write something which COULD HAVE worked for the PREVIOUS 25 years by testing with older browsers.

You'll want to restrict yourself to a subset of HTML which is supported by all of them, perhaps with some progressive enhancement.

Re: Ask HN: Best way to host a website for 500 years?

#514
post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you are talking about millions of works, you need to approach it statistically. That we have some works preserved does not mean that we are succeeding at preserving works in general. Nor is the fact that we have books preserved by previous generations a guarantee that the same books will be preserved by current and future generations. So one way to think about this is that society has a big junkyard into which i…

You weren't originally making a statistical point, you said: >Absolutely nothing can last in a liberal society that believes moral progress is possible Which is clearly not true. In any case, toward the more general claim that this post is making, which I will summarize as "Authoritarian societies are statistically better at preserving works in general" this is also demonstrably not true in the wide statistical sense…

> Which is clearly not true.

Huh? Pounding your fists on the table is not, you know, an argument. That not everything is deleted after 50 years is not proof that something can last permanently.

> In any case, toward the more general claim that this post is making, which I will summarize as "Authoritarian societies

That's a complete misunderstanding of the post, which contrasts traditional societies with liberal societies, by changing the subject to authoritarian societies. As if this was the only choice.

Authoritarian societies are not the opposite of liberal societies. In fact authoritarian societies -- e.g. communist and nazi societies or other societies in which individuals are micromanaged -- only came into existence in the 20th Century when the technology for mass micromanagement became possible. And whatever words you use to descibe authoritarian societies, "preserving tradition" is not one of them. These are big book burning, history-rewriting societies because they try to address the issue of social reproduction by the fist of centralized top-down control that monitors and micro-manages every aspect of life. Human beings are not compatible with that type of control, which is why authoritarian societies don't last very long -- the Russian czars lasted a thousand years whereas communism lasted only 70. And people were much more free under the czars than under communism, because the czars never tried to control every aspect of social life, and never needed to setup networks of gulags, or a vast secret police force, or party functionaries throwing people in prison for skipping work without a doctor's note.

There is the old saying "the right talks about authority, the left talks about control". For a society to be able to preserve knowledge, it must develop long lasting institutions and a culture that reveres the past and seeks to preserve it. Therefore while you need a cultural respect for authority, you cannot actually have a centralized system of social control. So you need basics like "honor your father and your mother" to be taught in churches and other civil institutions, but you cannot have a world in which political meetings decide which author is going to be erased from history today or whether so-and-so is allowed to attend university because their parents were class enemies.

Re: Ask HN: Best way to host a website for 500 years?

#515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of Italian and Swiss banks that are over 300 years old. They’ve survived reformations, wars including World Wars, plagues, purges, and the transition from feudal monarchies to empire and to democracy. For example, the British banking giant Barclays was founded in 1690. Here’s a partial list of other ancient banks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_banks_in_contin... I think it’s more reaso…

But I doubt Barclays is currently upholding contracts signed 200 years ago.

Benjamin Franklin's endowments to the cities of Boston and Philadelphia are still being maintained as trusts to this day.

Re: Ask HN: Best way to host a website for 500 years?

#517
Hijacking this question with a related one:

How long could a website realistically stay up for?

How long before the certificate will need to be updated? How about the underlying software? Communication protocol? IP? Each of these have their own probable expiration dates.

Is the URL "https://www.google.com" going to be accessible in 100 years without changing address?

Re: Ask HN: Best way to host a website for 500 years?

#518

Probably unpopular answer: you could store your messages to the future in the op_return field of a series of small bitcoin transactions. I wouldn't recommend making this the only egg in your basket but I think there is a non-zero probability the blockchain history will be preserved even if the currency isn't used any longer, kind of like how you can still go see Song dynasty paper currency from 1,000 years ago.

It should be a balance between readability, findability and integrity. I would not bet on the btc blockchain for it. Its relativly complex to use, its very niche, it is already 360gb big and there might be a time were it either disappears or gets optimized and your information will be gone.

If growth continues linearly it will be less than 20tb. It is possible to fit that much data on a single physical drive even now, let alone in 500 years. 360gb is just not that much.

Re: Ask HN: Best way to host a website for 500 years?

#519
post #134
post #38

If page is static - engrave it in a titanium plate, possibly as a QR code of sorts and pass it through generations. Include instructions for reader to publish it to whatever media analog of today's web page. So basically stay away from technology, get information encoded into lowest and most resilient physical material and rely on future generation to publish and/or update it's content.

Microsoft’s research’s Project Silica was doing interesting things on etching glass for long duration archival. https://news.microsoft.com/innovation-stories/ignite-project...

"5D optical data storage (sometimes known as Superman memory crystal) is a nanostructured glass for permanently recording digital data using a femtosecond laser writing process. ... GitHub, a subsidiary of Microsoft, plans to use this technology to archive all public Git repositories. Microsoft refers to this technology as Project Silica with a claimed lifetime of over 10,000 years." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5D_optical_data_storage

Re: Ask HN: Best way to host a website for 500 years?

#520

Print it out on acid-free paper with a stable, acid-free ink. Have it bound as a hardback, and seal it into a waterproof container. Entrust it to one of your children, tell them to keep it in a safe-deposit box and take it out once a year to share with their children, and to pass it on to their children with the same instructions. If you have it electronically, the absolute best case in 500 years is that it will be a…

The United States government studied this question and came to the conclusion of... acid free paper. So it's now law that "permanent" documents in the US are to be stored on acid free paper: https://www.loc.gov/preservation/resources/rt/perm/permpapr.... Some of us who remember the 5.25" floppy disks, the 3" "floppy" disks, the HUGE Zipdisks, the 5.25" spinning platter drives, the 2.5" spinning platter drives, then t…

> It's hard enough to read data from a drive built 20 years ago!

Because you don't have the hardware lying around right now. It's still quite possible to read all popular formats today and most of the ones you mentioned can even connect to the same SATA bus available on basically all normal mainboards. And those are mediums which are built for ~10 years (you'll find bit rot by then, which is what is actually preventing you from reading the data). Tapes, for example, are meant for long-term storage, are still in use and can be readily read.

To add to this, books have the same problem. Have a look at the declaration of independence: The font and language is already quite different from what we use today, and that's only from ~250 years ago. Plus the paper would probably not hold up to normal handling anymore.

Post reply on HN