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Artificial muscles robotic arm with full range of motion [video]

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Re: Artificial muscles robotic arm with full range of motion [video]

#52
I can’t wait for these things to be covered in real lab grown human skin and tissue and kept alive by nutrient packs held in the prosthetic itself. That way it doesn’t use any resources from the prosthetics wearer and we don’t have to deal with immunity issues.

Re: Artificial muscles robotic arm with full range of motion [video]

#53

Why does it sound like servos? With those type of artificial muscles I'd expect to maybe hear valves, not servos.

It sounds a lot like there's a compressor driving things in the background, and a lot of servo operated valves controlling flow.

I bet the "muscles" themselves are quite quiet.

Re: Artificial muscles robotic arm with full range of motion [video]

#54

Why does it sound like servos? With those type of artificial muscles I'd expect to maybe hear valves, not servos.

I'm pretty sure the sounds you hear (which resemble the sounds an articulating-arm desklamp makes) are the 'ligament' attachment points and joints.

Re: Artificial muscles robotic arm with full range of motion [video]

#55
post #10

This guy is a great engineer, I’ve been following his stuff for a while now. But there are unfortunately several fundamental limits which mean this type of system will likely never reach human level performance in a real world system. I work in robotics, specifically compliant and modular actuators, similar to the ones in the video. As I see it, (and many others in the field) One of the biggest issues in robotics is…

> In a nut shell, to make these strong enough to do much useful work, you need them to be really big, and that means they can’t move very fast. Strength is additive. Why can't you just add more smaller muscle fibers that work in concert? That's basically how real muscles work. This seems so obvious there must be something wrong with the idea.

> Why can't you just add more smaller muscle fibers that work in concert?

Great question. And yes, you can have lots of smaller ones to do the work of a few larger ones. The strength (stress) comes essentially from the cross sectional area of the muscle (or bundle of). And no matter how thin you make the spaghetti, you still need an equivalent volume of it to get the same cross section, For a given length.

The reason speed, as in how many times a second you can make it contract and lengthen, is a limiting factor comes down to good old force = mass x acceleration. Want to make it go faster?then you need higher pressure. So now You have a lot of water you need to move at high pressure with very rapid acceleration. This means the scale of the pumping equipment gets prohibitive very rapidly.

Real muscles work at a fundamental level by a kind of ratcheting mechanism between proteins that pull each other together. This process can happen very quickly. Mammal muscles don’t need to pump lots of liquids around with high acceleration and velocity. So there is actually a lot less inertia from moving mass in real muscle.

Another issue I didn’t touch on in my earlier post is that this kind of muscle is very difficult to do strain and force sensing with. To make motion with this kind of actuator that is both rapid and smooth is extremely difficult and still an open problem.

Re: Artificial muscles robotic arm with full range of motion [video]

#56

Well, this technology dates back to the 1950's. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatic_artificial_muscles Hydraulic, rather than pneumatic, operation has also been attempted. Fun stuff, but nowhere close to being practical in any way for real world robotics. And, no, it isn't a matter of iterating and optimization. These kinds of actuators will never be anywhere close to the energy efficiency and technical simplicit…

Reusable rockets weren't practical either. But someone was maverick enough to attempt it anyways. [1] You provide valuable information but I just hate how you succumb to easy thinking, an appeal to tradition [2]: "well it hadn't been done then so it can't possibly be done now." It's a form of anachronistic gatekeeping. It doesn't belong in the age we currently reside in. We have totally different computational abilit…

Reuse has been a goal since the at least 70s, with the Shuttle project, Buran, later the DC-X, etc. It wasn't one guy maverick enough to attempt it. And it wasn't given up on and then revived by one guy. Blue Origin, Armadillo, Scaled Composites, etc. were all attempting it. It is the largest scale (comparing heavy vs shuttle, though heavy hasn't seen much use) and seemingly most successful, and several other firsts.

The upper stage still is discarded, but if they can pull off the Starshuttle it will be huge and the first operating at anywhere near that scale with full reuse.

Re: Artificial muscles robotic arm with full range of motion [video]

#57
post #10

This guy is a great engineer, I’ve been following his stuff for a while now. But there are unfortunately several fundamental limits which mean this type of system will likely never reach human level performance in a real world system. I work in robotics, specifically compliant and modular actuators, similar to the ones in the video. As I see it, (and many others in the field) One of the biggest issues in robotics is…

This and op is all wholesome content. On the criticism, do you think more limited / lab-bound systems will help develop control technology in advance of better muscles?

Short answer: yes.

Long answer: I think that the more minds there are working on this (or any other interesting) problem, the more progress will be made. And we shouldn’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good enough.

The field of robotics, and especially soft robotics like this, is so new and uncharted that individuals tinkering in their garage can and have made real advances for the field.

That said, really good control systems for these kinds of actuators are something very much lacking. The human nervous system, and in particular the vestibular system is so absurdly effective, efficient and complex all at the same time that it boggles my mind. Nothing anyone has ever designed has ever come close to that level of functionality. But to make a robot that can do human things, we need that level of functionality. We need to have really good proprioception which is integrated with force and feedback sensing.

To give an example; open a bag of potato chips and pull out a decent handful. Now eat the chips one by one out of your hand without dropping any and without using your other hand. I dare say you can probably do this, and without crushing the chips in your hand. You can feel just how much force to apply, you can feel where to place your fingers so that all the chips are held just so. You can make subtle adjustments after each chip is taken away.

There is no robot hand in the world that can do that simple task. Ask any arm amputee. And to get to that point, a lot of really difficult stuff has to be invented and worked out. I suspect this is a problem which will be solved piecemeal, over time, but much of the fundamental work in things like the mathematics of motion control, material science and compliant mechanisms will come from very well funded labs. If I had to guess, I give a 60% chance a robot can do the chip eating task within a 5 years. And 85% within 10 years. (Especially if the work of my team pays off)

Re: Artificial muscles robotic arm with full range of motion [video]

#58
post #10

This guy is a great engineer, I’ve been following his stuff for a while now. But there are unfortunately several fundamental limits which mean this type of system will likely never reach human level performance in a real world system. I work in robotics, specifically compliant and modular actuators, similar to the ones in the video. As I see it, (and many others in the field) One of the biggest issues in robotics is…

Hey, I've been looking into artifical muscles myself. Are you guys stealth or can you talk about your company?

Yes we’re in stealth, so there is little to be said on details.

I can say that I’m a big fan of K. Eric Drexlers work and that you should read it if you want to know what the future will look like.

Re: Artificial muscles robotic arm with full range of motion [video]

#59

A few comparisons: > forearm with hand [weighs] only 1 kg That is slightly below a human forearm with a hand. > This artificial muscles robotic arm is operated by water and consumes 200W at peak The ideal consumption necessary to raise this 7 kg dumbbell by 1 meter in 1 second is 7 watts. Human muscle is about 20% efficient, so it probably consumes about 35 watts. Almost a tenth the power. A human arm can also achiev…

> achieve human immortallity [sic] by transplanting the brain into the machine the intuition is that it's probably easier to figure out how to keep a brain alive than an entire body alive

Your intuition is correct, and it’s already been done:

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-01216-4

Re: Artificial muscles robotic arm with full range of motion [video]

#60

Well, this technology dates back to the 1950's. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatic_artificial_muscles Hydraulic, rather than pneumatic, operation has also been attempted. Fun stuff, but nowhere close to being practical in any way for real world robotics. And, no, it isn't a matter of iterating and optimization. These kinds of actuators will never be anywhere close to the energy efficiency and technical simplicit…

Reusable rockets weren't practical either. But someone was maverick enough to attempt it anyways. [1] You provide valuable information but I just hate how you succumb to easy thinking, an appeal to tradition [2]: "well it hadn't been done then so it can't possibly be done now." It's a form of anachronistic gatekeeping. It doesn't belong in the age we currently reside in. We have totally different computational abilit…

It is always good to question assumptions. One you could consider is the assumption that all problems are created equal. This isn’t the case. There are fundamental and practical limits to things.

For this kind of artificial muscle actuator, there are fundamental limits to the way the physics works for this design which prevent it from ever simultaneously having good efficiency in energy and power density, high strain and high frequency operation. There are certainly ways to make artificial muscles work, but hydraulics is not the way.

For rockets and space vehicles, the limit has more to do with technology and material science.

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