Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused • Hacker News Board

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#261

Post by samhw » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 4:07 PM UTC

ziddoap wrote: post #231

pdimitar wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only thing I'll say is that all of this has been parroted to death, ever since the 70s, and I am not seeing an improvement anywhere. People love this fuzzy feeling that they are "spreading awareness" and that "we must start somewhere" but historically, I've lived long enough to not see those make any difference so far. But I really don't want to debate. I came to state anecdotal evidence + opinion. Neither of whi…

There is a vast difference between reaching the supreme court with your amicus briefs and "spreading awareness" in a blog post. They also aren't mutually exclusive. > But I really don't want to debate. I came to state anecdotal evidence + opinion. This is always funny to read. Write a strongly worded opinion, but refuse to engage with others. >but historically, I've lived long enough to not see those make any differe…

> how many times have you seen amicus briefs written to the supreme court defending 5th amendment rights?

Are you serious? There are 5th Amendment cases in the Supreme Court practically every month, to which plenty of groups will submit amicus briefs. I don't see how the tone of awe is warranted - it's really not a remotely unusual event.

Hell, you can see countless ones on Google from the EFF alone: https://www.google.com/search?q=eff+supreme+court+amicus+bri...

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#262

Post by dnautics » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 4:07 PM UTC

sp332 wrote: post #219

dnautics wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Though that's not really the point of those things in the legal code; the point is not for you to stop a cop from doing it at the point of abuse, but for you to have a legal arm to sue the fuck out of them afterwards, or to get a pass out of jail because the cops violated procedure. Yeah, it sucks for you, but it's supposed to be a deterrent to prevent cops from abusing their power in the future. Now, that obviously…

Doesn't the settlement money just come from taxes?

file under "other" reasons. To be sure, the governments don't want to keep getting sued so they start putting in policies to mitigate damage, but it is a source of inefficiency. It's also too easy for state and locals to float bonds and go into debt to cover these things, push the payoff problem to a future generation of voters/future generation of immigrants into the city. If there were a real hammer up against their heads (say, if municipal bonds and state bonds were outlawed), the efficiency would go up.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#263

Post by Ansil849 » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 4:08 PM UTC

rootusrootus wrote: post #255

Ansil849 wrote: post #233

Here's the thing: you can have all sorts of detached, academic discussions on a forum like HN or on a blogpost about what the best thing to do is, or the most pragmatic thing, or the worst thing when dealing with a police encounter. But if you ever find yourself in a situation where a police officer is pointing a gun at you, none of this discussion matters. I've had that happen to me (when an AirBNB owner failed to m…

> Should you encounter, at some point in your life, a situation where a police officer is pointing a gun at you, you will do whatever the fuck they are telling you to do. That's the grim reality. I'm not sure if that's grim, though; don't most people want it to be exactly that way? We grant the police extraordinary power and some amount of immunity on purpose .

This whole 250 comment thread is basically people discussing what they'd do or what you should do when finding yourself in a police encounter. My counterpoint is that none of that discussion actually applies.

As for most people wanting it that way, I think it is because most people have not actually encountered it. They want it in the abstract, likely not so much when it happens to them. Kind of the classic...the people who want wars typically don't want their children in those wars.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#264

Post by kingcharles » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 4:09 PM UTC

This happened to me. The police wanted my password and refused my right to silence, wouldn't let me call a lawyer. I wouldn't talk. Then they threatened my wife and I gave up my password to stop them from hurting her.

The password was suppressed by the court, but they let the police use it anyway because one of the officers (with no formal computer qualifications) testified he could have broken 2048-bit AES encryption without the password. And worse case he said he would unsolder the chips off the circuit board and put them onto another board and that would fix it. The judge allowed the testimony and believed it.

Make sure you always use a password on your devices though. Biometrics are not protected by the 5th Amendment in the USA as the police can legally force your finger onto a touchpad or hold your face in front of a camera.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#265

Post by colinmhayes » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 4:10 PM UTC

rootusrootus wrote: post #242

mywittyname wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone whose even been handcuffed knows this is a fact. They make no effort to hide the fact that they are intentionally causing you pain because they can.

I've been handcuffed, albeit only once in my life, and aside from the cop being exceedingly efficient (I didn't really see it coming until the cuffs were already on), he was actually entirely polite and professional about the whole thing. I've no doubt that there are bad cops out there. Probably more than a few. But I don't think it's helpful to portray the entire profession that way, even if they do bring a lot of t…

Maybe it's because I've lived in Chicago my whole life, but I've only ever dealt with cops who could be generously described as evil. The cops at my high school sat in the lobby all day harassing students, one of them was fired for starting a relationship with a student. The union contested and got his job back after he was elected president of their union. I've never had a government employee other than cops tell me to "fuck off" or "shut the fuck up". In fact, I can count on you hand the number of times anyone other than a close friend has said that to me, yet it seems like everyone I meet has been verbally abused by cops.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#266

Post by kingcharles » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 4:11 PM UTC

pdimitar wrote: post #53

Formally the police can't demand a lot of stuff. Informally, they'll put you in a room and tell you that they have the legal right to keep you anywhere from 24 to 72 hours in there and they definitely can make you reconsider during that period -- to put it very mildly. Hint: some cops are really good in the skill of inflicting pain to people without lasting medical trace to prove it afterwards. Until there's true acc…

I held out until the police threatened my wife and then I broke.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#267

Post by rootusrootus » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 4:13 PM UTC

Ansil849 wrote: post #263

rootusrootus wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Should you encounter, at some point in your life, a situation where a police officer is pointing a gun at you, you will do whatever the fuck they are telling you to do. That's the grim reality. I'm not sure if that's grim, though; don't most people want it to be exactly that way? We grant the police extraordinary power and some amount of immunity on purpose .

This whole 250 comment thread is basically people discussing what they'd do or what you should do when finding yourself in a police encounter. My counterpoint is that none of that discussion actually applies. As for most people wanting it that way, I think it is because most people have not actually encountered it. They want it in the abstract, likely not so much when it happens to them. Kind of the classic...the peo…

I agree with you, everyone wants the cops to be be all powerful, because everyone assumes they will never be on the business end of that gun.

It's basically the same advice Dr. Phil gave, and just about the only advice of his that ever resonated with me. Some people get it, some people don't, and when the cop is putting his boot on your face you aren't going to back talk. People fantasize online about all the things they will do in such a situation, but only people who have a good bit of experience with cops are going to be comfortable enough to talk smack to them.

And frankly, for most of us, "don't ever talk to the police, never, never, never" will actually lead to worse outcomes on average. The trick is to recognize when you should follow that advice, and when you should not. Sometimes it's obvious.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#268

Post by maxbond » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 4:13 PM UTC

rootusrootus wrote: post #255

Ansil849 wrote: post #233

Here's the thing: you can have all sorts of detached, academic discussions on a forum like HN or on a blogpost about what the best thing to do is, or the most pragmatic thing, or the worst thing when dealing with a police encounter. But if you ever find yourself in a situation where a police officer is pointing a gun at you, none of this discussion matters. I've had that happen to me (when an AirBNB owner failed to m…

> Should you encounter, at some point in your life, a situation where a police officer is pointing a gun at you, you will do whatever the fuck they are telling you to do. That's the grim reality. I'm not sure if that's grim, though; don't most people want it to be exactly that way? We grant the police extraordinary power and some amount of immunity on purpose .

> [D]on't most people want it to be exactly that way?

The people who are not having police encounters with any regularity, who aren't drawn on when they do get pulled over, who perhaps have property or other reasons to be invested in the status quo, often want things this way.

The people on the wrong side of the gun feel differently. Giving cops lethal power does not create safety. It shifts around what the danger is and who is in danger.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#269

Post by kingcharles » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 4:14 PM UTC

dnautics wrote: post #154

63 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's crazy to me the amount that people who have never dealt with the cops think "I'll just show them x legal code so they can see they don't have the right to do that." Turns out, they don't care. For minor infractions, they'll use whatever intimidation and coercion they want, then make you feel lucky for letting you out because they didn't feel like prosecuting. In most circumstances, the word of the person with th…

Though that's not really the point of those things in the legal code; the point is not for you to stop a cop from doing it at the point of abuse, but for you to have a legal arm to sue the fuck out of them afterwards, or to get a pass out of jail because the cops violated procedure. Yeah, it sucks for you, but it's supposed to be a deterrent to prevent cops from abusing their power in the future. Now, that obviously…

I just spent 8 years in jail waiting for the judge to rule on whether the police could use my password.

Always try to stop the police at the point of abuse.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#270

Post by soperj » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 4:14 PM UTC

dnautics wrote: post #154

63 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's crazy to me the amount that people who have never dealt with the cops think "I'll just show them x legal code so they can see they don't have the right to do that." Turns out, they don't care. For minor infractions, they'll use whatever intimidation and coercion they want, then make you feel lucky for letting you out because they didn't feel like prosecuting. In most circumstances, the word of the person with th…

Though that's not really the point of those things in the legal code; the point is not for you to stop a cop from doing it at the point of abuse, but for you to have a legal arm to sue the fuck out of them afterwards, or to get a pass out of jail because the cops violated procedure. Yeah, it sucks for you, but it's supposed to be a deterrent to prevent cops from abusing their power in the future. Now, that obviously…

Hard to sue people when you're dead.