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Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

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Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#241
post #62

Formally the police can't demand a lot of stuff. Informally, they'll put you in a room and tell you that they have the legal right to keep you anywhere from 24 to 72 hours in there and they definitely can make you reconsider during that period -- to put it very mildly. Hint: some cops are really good in the skill of inflicting pain to people without lasting medical trace to prove it afterwards. Until there's true acc…

It's crazy to me the amount that people who have never dealt with the cops think "I'll just show them x legal code so they can see they don't have the right to do that." Turns out, they don't care. For minor infractions, they'll use whatever intimidation and coercion they want, then make you feel lucky for letting you out because they didn't feel like prosecuting. In most circumstances, the word of the person with th…

My first interaction with the police was in college. I had locked my bike to a bench near the student union. Might have been obnoxious, probably shouldn't have, but it was also very common for students to lock bikes to those benches. Someone from the University's parking and transportation department had come by and double locked my bike with a notice saying it would be impounded and I'd have to come by the Parking and Transportation office to pay a fee and pick it up.

It didn't seem right to me that I would have to pay a fee for something that everyone did and that wasn't counter-indicated anywhere I was aware of. I did a little reading and discovered what I thought were two relevant city ordinances! I forget the exact language of the ordinances but it was something like "There needs to be a visible sign prohibiting locking bicycles in the area or to the fixtures to issue citations" and "Citations should be issued by police officers only who should be specifically named in the citation." I thought both of those applied to my situation as my citation was issued, not by an officer, but just generally by the Parking and Transportation department and there were no signs about not locking your bikes to benches.

I made the case to the woman behind the desk at the parking and transportation department. She was unmoved and insisted I had to pay the fine to get my bike back. I tried arguing along the lines that taking my bike against my will and in disagreement with the law was basically theft. She countered by saying that if it was theft I should call the police. When I repeated the accusation that it was theft she slid her desk phone across to me and told me to call the police again. Writing this, it seems crazy to me that I actually did - but I found it hard to back down in the moment and thought I was in the right on a legal basis. So, I called the non-emergency number for the campus police and explained the situation. The police person told me they'd send someone by.

A few minutes later a couple of cops showed up and asked to speak to me outside. I stepped outside with them and tried to explain the situation. Pretty quickly, before I even got into my legal arguments, one cop said "We got a call that you were disturbing the peace in there. That you were threatening people and acting violent." The second cop stepped extremely close to me, coming face to face in a threatening manner and asked me something like "Why are you threatening people?"

It was, first, completely untrue. I had never raised my voice or been threatening. I actually enjoy such arguments and I had been having a good time trying to rescue my bike. The Parking and Transportation Department woman had been unamused and maybe a little cynical or dry, but certainly never acted like there was a threat of any kind or like I was being hostile. And, of course, ultimately, I knew they were lying because I was the one who had called them and I definitely hadn't reported myself as causing a disturbance or being violent.

Realizing they wouldn't help me, I thanked the police for their service and left. From their perspective, they probably felt they had solved the problem. They got called over a problem and they made the problem go away. I've always felt the situation was a bit galling but looking back on it I see I was navigating the system the wrong way. The police are physical problem solvers, not legal arbiters, and should not be called for non-physical problems. And, maybe I was morally wrong anyway to lock my bike there.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Hint: some cops are really good in the skill of inflicting pain to people without lasting medical trace to prove it afterwards. Sorry, I don't buy that this happens with any kind of frequency in the 21st century United States, such that a person could reasonably expect this to happen to them. Do you have more than ambiguous innuendo to back up this claim?

Anyone whose even been handcuffed knows this is a fact. They make no effort to hide the fact that they are intentionally causing you pain because they can.

I've been handcuffed, albeit only once in my life, and aside from the cop being exceedingly efficient (I didn't really see it coming until the cuffs were already on), he was actually entirely polite and professional about the whole thing.

I've no doubt that there are bad cops out there. Probably more than a few. But I don't think it's helpful to portray the entire profession that way, even if they do bring a lot of the bad PR on themselves by how they handle the situations where a cop does behave badly.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly the point. The police can waste your time. Those people can’t go to work and will likely lose their job because they are being jammed up by police.

Yea, the bail situation in this country is fucked.

It varies a lot by state, however. Not every state has private bail bondsmen, bounty hunters, etc.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#244

Here's the thing: you can have all sorts of detached, academic discussions on a forum like HN or on a blogpost about what the best thing to do is, or the most pragmatic thing, or the worst thing when dealing with a police encounter. But if you ever find yourself in a situation where a police officer is pointing a gun at you, none of this discussion matters. I've had that happen to me (when an AirBNB owner failed to m…

Had a similar situation. Neighbor called cops because he saw a prowler outside his house at 2am. I woke up hearing commotion and went outside to my backyard. Nice young cop was in my yard (no fence between properties) and pointed his drawn gun right at me. My hands went up and I stopped moving. Probably even stopped breathing.

It was a terrible situation for everyone.

No prowler was caught.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#245

Formally the police can't demand a lot of stuff. Informally, they'll put you in a room and tell you that they have the legal right to keep you anywhere from 24 to 72 hours in there and they definitely can make you reconsider during that period -- to put it very mildly. Hint: some cops are really good in the skill of inflicting pain to people without lasting medical trace to prove it afterwards. Until there's true acc…

> Technically airport security can't make you unlock your phone in many countries as well but I've known two former colleagues who were "convinced" to do so in the airport's back room; the one where problematic passengers are held for 8-24h. Which is why I refuse to travel outside of the Schengen area. Even if I'd really like to visit the US one day once corona passes, there is absolutely no way I'll consent to essen…

> Which is why I refuse to travel outside of the Schengen area

That’s really a crazy mindset man. The US receives ~100m foreign visitors annually. There is nothing special about you, they don’t care about your Facebook profile. Worst comes to worst, you just refuse to unlock your device and they deport you back to where you came from.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#246
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be very surprised if evidence obtained this way would be admissible at a trial. But if you want to be safe, use another finger for your Id card than for your phone...

It is. Germany has no 'fruit of the poison tree' principle. Police can use whatever no matter how it was obtained.

Are you sure? Because in neighboring Czechia, a court can definitely rule evidence inadmissible if its gathering was legally unsound.

For example, call recordings that were obtained without lawful permission can be thrown out and actually currently were in a highly visible case.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#247

Formally the police can't demand a lot of stuff. Informally, they'll put you in a room and tell you that they have the legal right to keep you anywhere from 24 to 72 hours in there and they definitely can make you reconsider during that period -- to put it very mildly. Hint: some cops are really good in the skill of inflicting pain to people without lasting medical trace to prove it afterwards. Until there's true acc…

Any interaction with authorities should be legally required to be recorded. If you are held for 72h, there should be 72 hours of videos, not one minute less.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#248

Formally the police can't demand a lot of stuff. Informally, they'll put you in a room and tell you that they have the legal right to keep you anywhere from 24 to 72 hours in there and they definitely can make you reconsider during that period -- to put it very mildly. Hint: some cops are really good in the skill of inflicting pain to people without lasting medical trace to prove it afterwards. Until there's true acc…

> some cops are really good…

That’s why you ask for a defense attorney. Police even tell you this in your Maranda rights. If they fail read you your rights prior to detainment any thing they get in response to their questions or requests cannot be used against you.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#249
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why you need a good lawyer, to bring your story to the public, sue the damn police department and get justice! And then the cop gets 2 weeks of paid suspension, taxpayers pay you 20k in 'damages', and your lawyer costs only 35k.

the one part of this I will defend is taxpayers footing the bill. Frankly, the government employs cops on our behalf and they act on behalf of the population. This type of behavior is part of the American culture of policing, it is not 'individual bad actors'. We should bear the cost of them acting improperly. I vehemently object to us creating a culture where police are expected to behave in this way but then are pe…

But we didn't employ bad cops... we employed cops, they just turned bad.

If I hire a plumber, to fix my sink, and the plumber rapes my neighbor and burns his/her house, why should I pay for the damages? If a cop rapes someone, again, why should I pay?

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Technically airport security can't make you unlock your phone in many countries as well but I've known two former colleagues who were "convinced" to do so in the airport's back room; the one where problematic passengers are held for 8-24h. Which is why I refuse to travel outside of the Schengen area. Even if I'd really like to visit the US one day once corona passes, there is absolutely no way I'll consent to essen…

> Which is why I refuse to travel outside of the Schengen area. Even if I'd really like to visit the US one day once corona passes, there is absolutely no way I'll consent to essentially a digital striptease search with orifice controls. Same here. I am curious about the USA but after reading and hearing a bunch of stories... really, no thanks. I know chances are slim but I still don't want to risk it. > No wonder, g…

> Yeah. USA has a really strong propaganda system and it's a shame that even on HN, where people should be more critical thinkers, this is not widely recognized.

OTOH, I recommend strongly you consider how strong the anti-US propaganda is online, including on places like Reddit and HN. It's an entire art form now, how to be critical of the US in every possible way. Whether it's cops, health care, or imperial measurements.

The reality in the US is much different than portrayed on here, and you ought to be aware of that.

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