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Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

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Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#211

Post by pdimitar »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #207
pdimitar wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought the standard benefit of the doubt implies that I am not here to tell stories just because I am bored. I've known such people, yes, three of them. Law-abiding normal people whose only mistake was that they were in a hurry and were slightly rude to the police officers because of it. Technically, each and every claim of somebody can be disputed to death. That's why I invoked your right to not trust what strang…

Did any of your acquaintances do anything after their release in response to the police torturing/brutalising them? Go to the press for example, or sue, raise a complaint, etc.? Reading between the lines you're saying torture/brutality following arrest for speeding has been the experience of 3 of your friends? Aside, your combative tone really isn't helping make a useful discussion. Something like "I have no evidence…

> Something like "I have no evidence, sorry" would have been far better than attacking people requesting evidence.

Agreed, and I started correcting afterwards. I thought it was super obvious that I am sharing an anecdotal evidence and an opinion. I reacted hostile to claims that I somehow have to prove either of these (and both aren't clear-cut facts).

EDIT: To answer your questions, no, they haven't pressed charges (and it wasn't speeding, it was "a routine check"). They were even let go on the oral condition that they'll not pursue.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#212

Post by mschuster91 »

pdimitar wrote: post #53

Formally the police can't demand a lot of stuff. Informally, they'll put you in a room and tell you that they have the legal right to keep you anywhere from 24 to 72 hours in there and they definitely can make you reconsider during that period -- to put it very mildly. Hint: some cops are really good in the skill of inflicting pain to people without lasting medical trace to prove it afterwards. Until there's true acc…

> Technically airport security can't make you unlock your phone in many countries as well but I've known two former colleagues who were "convinced" to do so in the airport's back room; the one where problematic passengers are held for 8-24h.

Which is why I refuse to travel outside of the Schengen area. Even if I'd really like to visit the US one day once corona passes, there is absolutely no way I'll consent to essentially a digital striptease search with orifice controls.

Our digital devices - smartphones and laptops especially - are mirrors of our minds and our thoughts. Border control and police are not allowed to use torture to get access to our minds, they should not be given the power to circumvent that by accessing our phones.

> "Raising awareness" doesn't work on ruthless cops. I guess that's a mind-blowing revelation to many Westerners.

No wonder, given that

- the US has its pupils pledge allegiance to the country every single day

- authority and police are consistently shown as "the good guys" who don't have to respect rules in all forms of media and culture that don't originate from people of color and immigrants (like rap/hip hop)

- protests against said police overreach and abuse (as well as other forms of social injustice) are downplayed to outright vilified in mass media, and police abuse itself is ignored until protests turn extremely large and/or violent (such as with the George Floyd/BLM protests)

- anything "left wing" is branded "communist", and "communist" itself is branded as the devil - not just in the US but also across wide swaths of Europe.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#213

Post by joncrane »

kspacewalk2 wrote: post #78
pdimitar wrote: post #53

Formally the police can't demand a lot of stuff. Informally, they'll put you in a room and tell you that they have the legal right to keep you anywhere from 24 to 72 hours in there and they definitely can make you reconsider during that period -- to put it very mildly. Hint: some cops are really good in the skill of inflicting pain to people without lasting medical trace to prove it afterwards. Until there's true acc…

>Hint: some cops are really good in the skill of inflicting pain to people without lasting medical trace to prove it afterwards. Sorry, I don't buy that this happens with any kind of frequency in the 21st century United States, such that a person could reasonably expect this to happen to them. Do you have more than ambiguous innuendo to back up this claim?

I was once arrested wearing nothing but a t shirt on a freezing night. The police officer intentionally left the windows open in my compartment while blasting the heat in the driver's seat. I asked him to roll up the window and he ignored me. This was in Montgomery County, MD.

It happens.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#214

Post by clarkmoody »

ceejayoz wrote: post #18
soco wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the difference is from where the request comes - from the police during interrogation, or from the judge during trial.

The difference is also that the UK doesn't have a Fifth Amendment, and their right to remain silent is subtly but importantly different.

The intent of the Bill of Rights is that all humans have those rights, and the document restrains the federal government concerning them.

So the people in the UK have the right against self-incrimination, but the state systematically violates it.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#215

Post by phrz »

anonymousiam wrote: post #116

I'm a long-time EFF supporter, but I am always concerned when they (or any other organization that defends civil rights) chooses to intervene in a loser of a case like this. The defendant will likely be convicted of kidnapping, and hopefully the Supreme Court will not use some form of twisted logic to rationalize what the cops did. The correct ruling here is to force a mistrial and forbid any testimony about refusing…

You would be appalled to know that the defendant in Miranda v. Arizona very likely did, in fact, kidnap and rape his victim, and yet that case established one of the most important substantive rights in criminal investigations.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#216

Post by literallyaduck »

kspacewalk2 wrote: post #78
pdimitar wrote: post #53

Formally the police can't demand a lot of stuff. Informally, they'll put you in a room and tell you that they have the legal right to keep you anywhere from 24 to 72 hours in there and they definitely can make you reconsider during that period -- to put it very mildly. Hint: some cops are really good in the skill of inflicting pain to people without lasting medical trace to prove it afterwards. Until there's true acc…

>Hint: some cops are really good in the skill of inflicting pain to people without lasting medical trace to prove it afterwards. Sorry, I don't buy that this happens with any kind of frequency in the 21st century United States, such that a person could reasonably expect this to happen to them. Do you have more than ambiguous innuendo to back up this claim?

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/albertsamaha/this-teena...

Oh sorry that one left evidence, are you asking people to prove something without evidence?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rough_ride_%28police_brutali...

A practice so frequent it has a wiki article.

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/chavis-carter-comm...

Oops, that one is a "suicide".

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#217

Post by colonwqbang »

nerdponx wrote: post #164
thehappypm wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, a search warrant does not mean you need to hand over passwords.

How does this work with physical things, like a safe locked with a passcode, or a closet locked with a key?

They'll just break it open if you won't do it for them?

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#218

Post by xboxnolifes »

colinmhayes wrote: post #122
codezero wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

85% of the people in Rikers haven’t been convicted of anything.

Rikers is a jail, not a prison. Jails are meant to hold people who have not yet completed their trial. Once you're convicted you get sent to prison.

Thankfully people can use the fact that their trial hasn't yet completed to console the fact that they will be in Rikers for months.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#219

Post by sp332 »

dnautics wrote: post #154
63 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's crazy to me the amount that people who have never dealt with the cops think "I'll just show them x legal code so they can see they don't have the right to do that." Turns out, they don't care. For minor infractions, they'll use whatever intimidation and coercion they want, then make you feel lucky for letting you out because they didn't feel like prosecuting. In most circumstances, the word of the person with th…

Though that's not really the point of those things in the legal code; the point is not for you to stop a cop from doing it at the point of abuse, but for you to have a legal arm to sue the fuck out of them afterwards, or to get a pass out of jail because the cops violated procedure. Yeah, it sucks for you, but it's supposed to be a deterrent to prevent cops from abusing their power in the future. Now, that obviously…

Doesn't the settlement money just come from taxes?

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#220

Post by pdimitar »

mschuster91 wrote: post #212
pdimitar wrote: post #53

Formally the police can't demand a lot of stuff. Informally, they'll put you in a room and tell you that they have the legal right to keep you anywhere from 24 to 72 hours in there and they definitely can make you reconsider during that period -- to put it very mildly. Hint: some cops are really good in the skill of inflicting pain to people without lasting medical trace to prove it afterwards. Until there's true acc…

> Technically airport security can't make you unlock your phone in many countries as well but I've known two former colleagues who were "convinced" to do so in the airport's back room; the one where problematic passengers are held for 8-24h. Which is why I refuse to travel outside of the Schengen area. Even if I'd really like to visit the US one day once corona passes, there is absolutely no way I'll consent to essen…

> Which is why I refuse to travel outside of the Schengen area. Even if I'd really like to visit the US one day once corona passes, there is absolutely no way I'll consent to essentially a digital striptease search with orifice controls.

Same here. I am curious about the USA but after reading and hearing a bunch of stories... really, no thanks. I know chances are slim but I still don't want to risk it.

> No wonder, given that...

Yeah. USA has a really strong propaganda system and it's a shame that even on HN, where people should be more critical thinkers, this is not widely recognized.

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