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Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

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Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#101

Post by cmpb »

opheliate wrote: post #11

Meanwhile, in the UK: https://www.hcsolicitors.co.uk/news/giving-the-police-your-p... If a judge authorises a notice, under RIPA, you can be served a 2 year sentence for failing to disclose your phone's passcode.

In the US that would be a (search?) warrant which also comes from the judge during a police investigation and authorizes the police to get your phone's passcode under threat of prison time.

This particular case is different because the police did not get a warrant and instead just asked the guy to disclose (without a warrant), which he refused to do, then they tried to use that against the guy in court, which is a violation of the US constitution.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#102

Post by pdimitar »

jjk166 wrote: post #98
pdimitar wrote: post #53

Formally the police can't demand a lot of stuff. Informally, they'll put you in a room and tell you that they have the legal right to keep you anywhere from 24 to 72 hours in there and they definitely can make you reconsider during that period -- to put it very mildly. Hint: some cops are really good in the skill of inflicting pain to people without lasting medical trace to prove it afterwards. Until there's true acc…

You don't get justice in a police station, you get justice in a courtroom. The cops may do all sorts of things to you that they're not supposed to, and there's nothing you can do to stop them. But now you have a good chance of getting the whole case, or at least any evidence they obtain as a result of these actions thrown out the window, and potentially stand to gain from a profitable civil suit. Be compliant, be qui…

Technically you are right but 99% of us have places to be and things to do. Most will suck it up and never even mention it.

I don't like it and nobody likes it, but it's very often the case. :(

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#103

Post by kspacewalk2 »

pdimitar wrote: post #97
kspacewalk2 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Hint: some cops are really good in the skill of inflicting pain to people without lasting medical trace to prove it afterwards. Sorry, I don't buy that this happens with any kind of frequency in the 21st century United States, such that a person could reasonably expect this to happen to them. Do you have more than ambiguous innuendo to back up this claim?

What you "buy" makes no difference to what happened to people out there. Believe what you will.

I don't believe your argument even rises to the level of being anecdata. It's a tier or two below.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#104

Post by Consultant32452 »

copo233 wrote: post #95
Consultant32452 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

That makes even less sense, somehow.

Conservatives tend to think in terms of structure and order. That is why you will hear them babble on about things being "Unconstitutional!" all the time as if that has any meaning in the real world.

Liberals tend to think they can manifest reality just by saying the right thing. This causes them to be very vigilant about the words we use to describe things and they also think things like putting up a gun free zone sign at a school will prevent school shootings.

When a cop is beating a liberal to death with a stick, the liberal understands the cop is exercising his power and will get away with it. When a cop is beating a conservative to death with a stick the conservative will righteously complain about how that's illegal and I want this bad apple's badge number.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#105

Post by adwn »

pdimitar wrote: post #97
kspacewalk2 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Hint: some cops are really good in the skill of inflicting pain to people without lasting medical trace to prove it afterwards. Sorry, I don't buy that this happens with any kind of frequency in the 21st century United States, such that a person could reasonably expect this to happen to them. Do you have more than ambiguous innuendo to back up this claim?

What you "buy" makes no difference to what happened to people out there. Believe what you will.

They asked for any evidence beyond "it's like this, trust me" and you answered with "really, it's like this, trust me". Do you realize that if someone isn't convinced after the first "trust me", they won't be convinced by the second "trust me"?

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#106

Post by dragonwriter »

ceejayoz wrote: post #7
nixpulvis wrote: post #5

Hmmmm... I was under the impression this was already the case. I remember reading about this a while ago when I was learning that they can force you to provide a fingerprint or face-scan.

Not having to reveal the passcode has been the rule for a while. Not being allowed to bring that refusal up as evidence of guilt on Fifth Amendment grounds during the trial is new. (And correct.)

> Not having to reveal the passcode has been the rule for a while

No, its not. It is an issue that is left open in US Supreme Court Fifth Amendment case law, and on which lower courts are split.

> Not being allowed to bring that refusal up as evidence of guilt on Fifth Amendment grounds during the trial is new

No, it is well-established that you can't raise use of Fifth Amendment self-incrimination rights to suggest guilt, so if not revealing passcodes is protected (which is the point in dispute that EFF is arguing to the Utah Supreme Court, and which the court immediately below agreed with), there is no dispute that refusal can't also be used to suggest guilt.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#107

Post by shwoopdiwoop »

pdimitar wrote: post #70
63 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's crazy to me the amount that people who have never dealt with the cops think "I'll just show them x legal code so they can see they don't have the right to do that." Turns out, they don't care. For minor infractions, they'll use whatever intimidation and coercion they want, then make you feel lucky for letting you out because they didn't feel like prosecuting. In most circumstances, the word of the person with th…

Yep. My philosophy is to always cooperate (unless they ask for something super egregious) and show myself as friendly. This immediately reduces the alarms in their heads. I even say things like "sure guys, here are my docs, here are the contents of my backpack, hope you catch the guy you are after" and smile. Very often the mere fact that you are not trouble makes them pay less attention and the whole thing ends real…

This is terrible advice.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#108

Post by pdimitar »

kspacewalk2 wrote: post #103
pdimitar wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you "buy" makes no difference to what happened to people out there. Believe what you will.

I don't believe your argument even rises to the level of being anecdata. It's a tier or two below.

It's not an argument. It's a stated observation. You can question it until the end of time, won't change something that already happened.

Why are we doing this at all? You add absolutely nothing to the discussion, except maybe question if I haven't imagined things.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#109

Post by anonymousiam »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #68
63 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's crazy to me the amount that people who have never dealt with the cops think "I'll just show them x legal code so they can see they don't have the right to do that." Turns out, they don't care. For minor infractions, they'll use whatever intimidation and coercion they want, then make you feel lucky for letting you out because they didn't feel like prosecuting. In most circumstances, the word of the person with th…

[flagged]

The fallacy of this analogy is that Law/Constitution being valued by conservatives refers to the direct rights of an individual, whereas Gun Free Zones are not a "right" of an individual, and actually infringes on the right of other individuals to "keep and bear arms".

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#110

Post by [deleted] »

adwn wrote: post #105
pdimitar wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you "buy" makes no difference to what happened to people out there. Believe what you will.

They asked for any evidence beyond "it's like this, trust me" and you answered with "really, it's like this, trust me" . Do you realize that if someone isn't convinced after the first "trust me", they won't be convinced by the second "trust me"?

[deleted]
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