Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused • Hacker News Board

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#61

Post by LinuxBender » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 1:34 PM UTC

gwbas1c wrote: post #52

LinuxBender wrote: post #20

Sortof off topic question. I've never owned a smart phone but might get one soon assuming I can find a decent one that will run grapheneOS. Is there an app that can be given permission to intercept the unlock code and upon receiving the panic/under duress code, discretely put the phone into a "parental controls" configuration that sandboxes all your data and only presents the storage you want the law enforcement chil…

I think an easier approach is not to do anything incriminating on your phone.

True, but I accept the possibility that what is legal today may not be legal tomorrow and ignorance of the law is no excuse as they would say. I like having options.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#62

Post by 63 » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 1:35 PM UTC

pdimitar wrote: post #53

Formally the police can't demand a lot of stuff. Informally, they'll put you in a room and tell you that they have the legal right to keep you anywhere from 24 to 72 hours in there and they definitely can make you reconsider during that period -- to put it very mildly. Hint: some cops are really good in the skill of inflicting pain to people without lasting medical trace to prove it afterwards. Until there's true acc…

It's crazy to me the amount that people who have never dealt with the cops think "I'll just show them x legal code so they can see they don't have the right to do that." Turns out, they don't care. For minor infractions, they'll use whatever intimidation and coercion they want, then make you feel lucky for letting you out because they didn't feel like prosecuting. In most circumstances, the word of the person with the most power is law, regardless of what the actual law says, and usually that's the guy in the uniform with the gun.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#63

Post by avianlyric » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 1:36 PM UTC

jsilence wrote: post #58

If the government has my fingerprints, would they be allowed to use them to unlock the confiscated phone? Might explain why in Germany as of lately you have your fingerprints taken when getting your personal ID (Personalausweis).

What do American constitutional protections have to do with German ID?

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#64

Post by hutrdvnj » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 1:37 PM UTC

jsilence wrote: post #58

If the government has my fingerprints, would they be allowed to use them to unlock the confiscated phone? Might explain why in Germany as of lately you have your fingerprints taken when getting your personal ID (Personalausweis).

I think it's possible to deny that.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#65

Post by teh_klev » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 1:39 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #18

soco wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the difference is from where the request comes - from the police during interrogation, or from the judge during trial.

The difference is also that the UK doesn't have a Fifth Amendment, and their right to remain silent is subtly but importantly different.

Indeed, in England and Wales:

"You do not have to say anything, but it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence."

In Scotland it's different:

"You are not obliged to say anything but anything you do say will be noted down and may be used in evidence. Do you understand?"[1]

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_silence#Scotland

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#66

Post by quacked » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 1:40 PM UTC

63 wrote: post #62

pdimitar wrote: post #53

Formally the police can't demand a lot of stuff. Informally, they'll put you in a room and tell you that they have the legal right to keep you anywhere from 24 to 72 hours in there and they definitely can make you reconsider during that period -- to put it very mildly. Hint: some cops are really good in the skill of inflicting pain to people without lasting medical trace to prove it afterwards. Until there's true acc…

It's crazy to me the amount that people who have never dealt with the cops think "I'll just show them x legal code so they can see they don't have the right to do that." Turns out, they don't care. For minor infractions, they'll use whatever intimidation and coercion they want, then make you feel lucky for letting you out because they didn't feel like prosecuting. In most circumstances, the word of the person with th…

You're absolutely right, and it's insane that people don't realize this. So many people that want police reform in the US think that somehow we can continue to let the police be mostly made up by people with a certain political persuasion and education level, and that we can simply control them with laws and incentives.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#67

Post by colejohnson66 » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 1:42 PM UTC

LinuxBender wrote: post #48

judge2020 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might not stand out but it would still be contempt of court. Not turning over evidence with a constitutional defense is easier to defend in court than malicious fake-compliance.

Possibly true in court at least, but I think the end user should have the option to make this decision. Maybe give them a disclaimer that says In bold red text .. "Depending on your jurisdiction you may have legal problems using this feature! Research this and consult an attorney before enabling. You have been warned". In the US this would only apply in courts. AFAIK this would not be the case when interacting with t…

Even if the feature warned users, Apple and Google would not be off the hook. It’s entirely possible a prosecutor will go after them for implementing a feature designed to evade police and destroy evidence.

Us programmers tend to thing the law is black and white and a legal disclaimer solves all issues, but it’s not. The law can be (and is) a gray area determined by the courts on an individual basis. Judges don’t look fondly on technicalities for skirting the law. After all, they are humans, too. Not computers.

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#68

Post by Consultant32452 » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 1:43 PM UTC

63 wrote: post #62

pdimitar wrote: post #53

Formally the police can't demand a lot of stuff. Informally, they'll put you in a room and tell you that they have the legal right to keep you anywhere from 24 to 72 hours in there and they definitely can make you reconsider during that period -- to put it very mildly. Hint: some cops are really good in the skill of inflicting pain to people without lasting medical trace to prove it afterwards. Until there's true acc…

It's crazy to me the amount that people who have never dealt with the cops think "I'll just show them x legal code so they can see they don't have the right to do that." Turns out, they don't care. For minor infractions, they'll use whatever intimidation and coercion they want, then make you feel lucky for letting you out because they didn't feel like prosecuting. In most circumstances, the word of the person with th…

[flagged]

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#69

Post by TameAntelope » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 1:47 PM UTC

ajb wrote: post #28

soco wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the difference is from where the request comes - from the police during interrogation, or from the judge during trial.

Not quite - the police have to ask a judge for authorisation, but it's not during a trial, so there is no opportunity for anyone to oppose it. It's just that there is a formal record so if the system is abused, there is evidence of the fact, extent and who is responsible.

From a legal constraint point of view yes, but from a physical laws of the universe, a cop can do whatever he pleases in that room, alone, with you, and say anything he likes about what transpired.

Cameras? Malfunctioning, those buggers. Your lawyer? You waived that right, you said you were innocent and didn't need one. Phone? Well the officer explained very nicely the situation and you decided to do your best to help. Not sure why you're alleging misdeed now, when you handed your unlocked phone over without prompting...

Re: Police can’t demand you reveal your phone passcode then tell a jury you refused

#70

Post by pdimitar » Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 1:47 PM UTC

63 wrote: post #62

pdimitar wrote: post #53

Formally the police can't demand a lot of stuff. Informally, they'll put you in a room and tell you that they have the legal right to keep you anywhere from 24 to 72 hours in there and they definitely can make you reconsider during that period -- to put it very mildly. Hint: some cops are really good in the skill of inflicting pain to people without lasting medical trace to prove it afterwards. Until there's true acc…

It's crazy to me the amount that people who have never dealt with the cops think "I'll just show them x legal code so they can see they don't have the right to do that." Turns out, they don't care. For minor infractions, they'll use whatever intimidation and coercion they want, then make you feel lucky for letting you out because they didn't feel like prosecuting. In most circumstances, the word of the person with th…

Yep. My philosophy is to always cooperate (unless they ask for something super egregious) and show myself as friendly. This immediately reduces the alarms in their heads. I even say things like "sure guys, here are my docs, here are the contents of my backpack, hope you catch the guy you are after" and smile.

Very often the mere fact that you are not trouble makes them pay less attention and the whole thing ends really quickly.