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Banks, gangsters and the strange resurgence of cash

economist.com

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Re: Banks, gangsters and the strange resurgence of cash

#181

Post by sokoloff »

thorin wrote: post #157
astura wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always heard the best way to do this transaction is for buyer and seller to meet at buyers bank. Buyer obtains cashier's check with seller watching and hands it over to seller before leaving bank. This way seller knows cashier's check is real, you don't have to deal with large amounts of cash, and nobody's at risk of getting robbed. Downside is you have to go during banking hours and you have to make an extra tr…

I don't really see people doing this in the UK anymore. Cars can be bought with a debit card if you have the funds, sometimes a call to the bank is required for verification. When I've bought 2nd hand kayaks from someone's home, I've been able to transfer the money on my phone through the banking app and they've seen the funds arrive in seconds. Is this not the case in the US?

Every secondhand item I've bought or sold on Craigslist (including a car bought and a car sold) was transacted in cash (literal banknotes). There is 0.0% chance that I'd consider paying or accepting anything else as it's just not the normal practice, meaning the risk of fraud is much higher.

Re: Banks, gangsters and the strange resurgence of cash

#182

Post by wink »

tobyjsullivan wrote: post #18
anonporridge wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The precautionary savings of physical cash may even be on the rise as people realize how easily their economic lives could be switched off in an instant in the increasingly digital world, whether by being intentionally targeted or accidentally disabled with a lot of bureaucracy slowing down the correction. Having enough cash under your mattress that authority figures can't easily take from you is a psychological comf…

Pseudo-relevant anecdote: I wanted to buy a used car a few months ago off someone on Facebook. We were meeting up same day so the easiest method seemed to be cash. I went to the bank to withdraw $7000 and was informed, much to my surprise, that it is impossible to withdraw more than $3000 without 48 hours notice. Suffice it to say, I've been seriously considering the tradeoffs of hoarding cash under my mattress.

Same thing here, wanted to buy a car in cash, called the bank "Can I have x thousand EUR today?" - "No, you need to tell us 24h in advance" - "OK, can I have x-1 thousand EUR tomorrow?" - "Are you kidding me?"

Well, either they made it or I went to 2 different branches, but it was a classic "Why even have the rule with an arbitrary number"

Re: Banks, gangsters and the strange resurgence of cash

#183

Post by daot »

nivenkos wrote: post #169
eitland wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Next door, in Norway, the Norwegian bank is quite clear that accepting cash is required for every shop and failure to do so will be punished (unmanned kiosks and vending machines seems to be allowed though). I'm actually in favour of that, not because I fear my current government but because it - is convenient (much better than gift cards) - feels good to be able to buy stuff without telling my bank and Google and wh…

But banning cash, stops all petty crime, tax evasion, drug dealing, etc. immediately. It's such a great solution and we're so close! No-one will rob you when you have no cash to take, and they can't sell your phone anywhere since it could be traced (and the phone is now locked out and banned via IMEI, etc.). Technology could make society so much safer, so easily. And cards can work offline in an emergency, like they…

> banning cash, stops all petty crime, tax evasion, drug dealing, etc. immediately.

Is this sarcastic? You do realize the vast majority of tax evasion happens through banks right? Like African dictators stashing dirty money in European or Swiss Banks, or Mexican druglords using HSBC to launder money. Specifically in scandinavia:

> the leaks with the detailed administrative records of wealth, income, and taxes paid that Norway, Sweden, and Denmark maintain to offer a detailed portrait of tax evasion in the three Nordic countries. The findings are fairly shocking. Throughout the three countries, about 3 percent of all personal taxes are avoided. But among those with more than $40 million in assets — not the top 1 percent but the top 0.01 percent — about 30 percent of taxes are evaded [0]

Do you think the top 0.01% avoid their 30% of taxes by carrying cash?

What about drug dealing with cryptocurrency? Or petty crime with credit card copying? How would banning cash make a material difference?

[0] https://www.vox.com/2017/6/7/15745978/tax-evasion-zucman

Re: Banks, gangsters and the strange resurgence of cash

#184

Post by dade_ »

People that live in countries with unstable or collapsed currencies use USD (I assume the same of Euros and GBP) as well. Everyone in Cuba wants USD now for example. It isn’t for money laundering or terrorism, it is for toothpaste and clothing. I imagine Euros are popular in Turkey these days.

Re: Banks, gangsters and the strange resurgence of cash

#185

Post by marban »

GuB-42 wrote: post #168
sofixa wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vending machines in France usually have NFC readers to allow contactless payments by card or phone. It's so much more practical than carrying a bunch of coins.

Many vending machines in Tokyo accept contactless subway cards (suica) for payment, but not all of them. The Japanese still love their cash and coins. And even though they have a variety of NFC payment options and credit cards are not as terrible as they once were, their adoption rate is slow.

Can't wait to swipe my Hello Kitty Icoca for a can of Boss Flash Brew ;)

Re: Banks, gangsters and the strange resurgence of cash

#186

Post by leppr »

sofixa wrote: post #130
post_from_work wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Granted I live in Japan, but I carry a coinpurse (an old camera bag) because the 10-yen, 100-yen, and 500-yen coins are so useful. Vending machines are on practically every corner here, and the drink sizes are such that $1.20 for a drink is normal. I think most US vending machines have gigantic cans of Coca-Cola / Red Bull / Monster for $3+. The US probably could get by with just $1 and $5 coins.

Vending machines in France usually have NFC readers to allow contactless payments by card or phone. It's so much more practical than carrying a bunch of coins.

But it's much much harder to acquire a privacy-respecting contactless payment setup than carry a bunch of coins.

Re: Banks, gangsters and the strange resurgence of cash

#187

Post by roenxi »

bigger_inside wrote: post #143
inopinatus wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is a lot of rumor and speculation about very benign things. There is certainly misrepresentation and rumour-mongering in these comments, but not in the article, and there's nothing benign about international money laundering, or more precisely, nothing benign about the people it enables. > $50 Billion in cash is basically nothing. It's like 2% of currency in circulation. This is very far from the numbers quot…

"Money Laundering" is the narrative that always drives monetary controls, and by inference, when they're successful, everything that's not under digital surveillance is under suspicion of money-laundering. In practice, AML laws don't protect from large sums being washed by nefarious billionaires at all - as we well know, the existing banking systems with their tax and reporting havens are well able to handle large am…

All that is to say nothing of the numerous times it turns out the banking system is itself the criminal actor. Just looking at the most recent scandal listed on Wikipedia [0] I see Madoff near-single-handedly exceeded the 50 billion in missing cash with his ponzi scheme.

It isn't like removing privacy stops crime, it just makes corrupting the government more profitable.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_corporate_collapses_an...

Re: Banks, gangsters and the strange resurgence of cash

#188

Post by bainsfather »

bogota wrote: post #177
rsj_hn wrote: post #6

There is a lot of rumor and speculation about very benign things. 1. Precautionary savings. In a low interest rate environment, there is not the same penalty for holding cash as getting interest in a savings account. A lot of people find it prudent to have a buffer of cash, say enough to cover 1 month of expenses. So cash withdrawn from an ATM but put into a piggybank or under the mattress will appear here as "missin…

The economist has been killing me for a long time. They use to have what I thought were good articles or maybe i was just less informed although I don’t think that has changed in the past 2 years when i noticed a huge drop in quality. If anyone has any good news sources please let me know. The economist was the last thing i was reading before it stopped putting out quality content.

I know what you mean. In my case also, I think it is a combination of me being better informed about the world and the economist declining somewhat over time. BUT I started reading it 25 years ago, and still do read it a bit.

In terms of other news sources - I have no great advice. Here in the uk, I read the Financial Times - it is also rather international - maybe have a look at it. I would say that it is ok rather than great - but it is nice to get your news from more than one place. Private Eye is excellent, but mainly just for a subset of uk news.

I would like to have one "go-to" news source that I could rely on. But that is apparently not possible. So I read a few different things, and try to judge from their different stories what is really going on. Interestingly, I find that hn is a good source of quality information and insight, although it (of course) doesn't cover everything that I want to know about.

Re: Banks, gangsters and the strange resurgence of cash

#189

Post by cascom »

dade_ wrote: post #184

People that live in countries with unstable or collapsed currencies use USD (I assume the same of Euros and GBP) as well. Everyone in Cuba wants USD now for example. It isn’t for money laundering or terrorism, it is for toothpaste and clothing. I imagine Euros are popular in Turkey these days.

I don’t know how you write an article on this subject and don’t mention this. Argentina, Venezuela, etc. USD/EUR cash is how people save/avoid inflation.

Plus USD is the official (?) currency in Panama, and de facto currency in half the Caribbean.

Not to mention the western governments have been shipping cash by the plane load into conflict zones to pay off war lords and other leaders

Re: Banks, gangsters and the strange resurgence of cash

#190

Post by bombcar »

dylan604 wrote: post #37
bombcar wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s $166 per person in the USA. The horror.

I could spend that $166 better than how it is being used now, so can I have mine back?

Maybe that’s what the stimulus payment was …
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