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BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

pushevs.com

141–150 of 180 posts

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, any bike will do wheelies if you have the knack for it :) But if you're wondering, no it doesn't do power wheelies - I can definitely feel the weight shifting back though. I haven't weighed it yet, but: The bike itself is 15kg. The battery weights 48g per cell, so at 140 cells (14s10p) that would be 6.7kg, but I'll round up to 7.5kg for the wiring, mounting, etc... The motor and controller and screen are around…

Very neat, and nice to have a fairly high voltage setup like that, mine is only 36V nominal so it needs pretty fat wiring to not lose a bunch of power on the way to the motor (that was the first thing I fixed, the difference was noticable, both in range and in power). 35 Kg is doable, as long as that battery doesn't run dry! Mine really isn't pleasant if you end up without assist, it's doable but I really hate it, es…

I've actually pedaled without the battery but with the motor in place.

Let me tell you, the added weight is nothing... On a hub motor when you don't have a connected battery, say because the BMS tripped as you ran dry, the motor converts a signficant amount of your kinetic energy into electrical energy and then to heat. You can really feel it cogging. I could swear the two weeks I ran it without a batteris saw my thighs get significantly bigger!

Thankfully in my city there are plentiful subway stations with elevators, so when I did run dry once, I was able to pedal my bike into the subway and take it home.

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#142
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why charge so much to license that no one will bother? Is it sunk cost thinking? Some money from licensing is better than nothing at all isn't it?

To create monopoly, the answer is always to create a monopoly. All of this was set in our future when corporations were not prohibited from having patents.

> To create monopoly, the answer is always to create a monopoly.

That doesn't answer the question. Having a monopoly is only a means to an end (ie. making money), not an end unto itself.

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Link is now fixed. Yes, 1A is overkill, 100 mA would be plenty (and likely still too much), but the Bosch BMS has maybe 1 mA balancing capability and that's too little for a pack that size so I decided to throw in something beefier and this was the smallest one that had bluetooth out so I can monitor it, a pack that gets unbalanced too much is a good indication that something is wrong, for instance a weld that's not…

Ah, if the cells going out of balance even slightly will brick the BMS, that is something else. In that case "lying" to the BMS is a good idea and at that point you might as well add your own balancer. AS for the battery fire, that is why I suggest using a second BMS and running the phase wires from there - a good BMS such as the one I use will cut off the power when there is an even slight imbalance, which is my cue…

Yes, second BMS is included as well, it has a whole bunch of safety features and will be in series with the Bosch one so that it gets first say in cutting out. Though likely the whole Bosch BMS would evaporate if that pack ever shorts out through the BMS :) But that one didn't have the ability to actively balance the pack (which I don't know if I'll ever need but better safe than sorry, once sealed I'd like to keep it sealed, there is a lot of rain here), and it didn't have a bluetooth hookup possibility. Especially in the beginning I'll be monitoring that thing like a hawk, I'm a pretty good welder but spotwelding with rickety gear by hand is a thing that I'm not 100% confident about and it won't take much to mess that up.

70 cts / cell?? Wow. Consider me somewhat jealous, that's an absolute bargain. But better keep a good eye on them then, a FLIR isn't a luxury, it is a good idea to keep an eye on the cell temperature using a FLIR while charging, bad cells will stand out immediately (as well as later on, when they are possibly warmer than their brothers and sisters around them which should be at ambient fairly soon after you stop charging, that's a good indication of a partial short in a cell). I've already spotted some bad apples like that which when checked out on a reference charger seemed to be perfectly ok. It also helps to spot bad welds, simply load up the pack and look at the interconnects, any bad welds will be higher temp because of their increased resistance.

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#144
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW Sony sued BYD for patent infringement in Japanese courts and lost. Sanyo sued BYD in US courts and settled mostly on the side of BYD. BYD also managed to invalidate a Panasonic patents. It seems to me that China bet on LFP, the West bet on Li-ion, and China's bet is pretty successful. You'd be right to say that patents limited LFP in the West, but generally Japanese/Korean firms seemed relatively uninterested in…

LiFePO4 has lower energy density and it's way more durable. Both properties go against the throw-away culture. (Hand held) Tool industry thrives on selling battery packs - every single brand has its own battery lock-in to boot as well. Phones often get disposed once their battery capacity diminishes.

You're implying that there's some sort of conspiracy to keep LiFePO4 out, because it goes against "throw-away culture". If that's true, why aren't we stuck using NiCd batteries today? Surely a battery with memory effects[1] would be even better for "throw-away culture" than lithium batteries than can be arbitrarily charged/discharged for a few hundred cycles?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel%E2%80%93cadmium_battery...

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very neat, and nice to have a fairly high voltage setup like that, mine is only 36V nominal so it needs pretty fat wiring to not lose a bunch of power on the way to the motor (that was the first thing I fixed, the difference was noticable, both in range and in power). 35 Kg is doable, as long as that battery doesn't run dry! Mine really isn't pleasant if you end up without assist, it's doable but I really hate it, es…

I've actually pedaled without the battery but with the motor in place. Let me tell you, the added weight is nothing... On a hub motor when you don't have a connected battery, say because the BMS tripped as you ran dry, the motor converts a signficant amount of your kinetic energy into electrical energy and then to heat. You can really feel it cogging. I could swear the two weeks I ran it without a batteris saw my thi…

You've found a nice way to add a workout I think :) Mine is simply un-driveable for any distance without support, it's not a hub motor but a mid motor and there is a whole pile of gears that are driven as well as the motor itself. It's like trying to sail with the anchor out.

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#146
post #103
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has been 700 days since Tesla & Co debuted the Cybertruck and took pre-orders, with no new tangible updates. It has been 1,435 days since Tesla & Co took pre-orders charging a $50,000 deposit to pre-order the roadster. It has been 1,435 days since Tesla & Co announced the Tesla Semi, with no new tangible updates since 2017. They have legally filed that their system is, and will be for the long foreseeable future,…

They would make so much money with a model 2 that they might be able to justify their valuation. I find it hard to believe that they won't eventually build it. Obviously not going to happen until factories are not at capacity with higher margin cars, but it seems likely to eventually happen.

There are affordable electric cars on the market today with better build quality than what Tesla sells for $80k. Someone will make a killing off affordable electric cars. Every indication is it will not be Tesla.

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, if the cells going out of balance even slightly will brick the BMS, that is something else. In that case "lying" to the BMS is a good idea and at that point you might as well add your own balancer. AS for the battery fire, that is why I suggest using a second BMS and running the phase wires from there - a good BMS such as the one I use will cut off the power when there is an even slight imbalance, which is my cue…

Yes, second BMS is included as well, it has a whole bunch of safety features and will be in series with the Bosch one so that it gets first say in cutting out. Though likely the whole Bosch BMS would evaporate if that pack ever shorts out through the BMS :) But that one didn't have the ability to actively balance the pack (which I don't know if I'll ever need but better safe than sorry, once sealed I'd like to keep i…

Hmm, why are you putting the Bosch BMS in series? Is it going to turn off unless it detects a load? I'd simply not connect it's phase wires, but it's possible the Bosch magic won't let that work.

Thankfully I didn't have to spot-weld. I used cells from modem batteries, so they were already spot welded - I was able to very rapidly solder to the spot welded tabs which already had some spots to run balance wire through, and the batteries were connected to each other 3 by 3. Then I was able to solder the "balance" wires which were quite thick at each cell to put them in series and it worked fine.

The pack as it is now does not heat up at all. That's to be expected I guess because I'm charging it overnight quite slowly and I'm not really drawing more than 1C.

I had multiple cells that I threw out - I all ran them through a balance charger and fast-charged then fast-discharged them. Any cell that got warm, out of balance, or didn't hold the expected capacity was thrown out. I ended up disposing of 25 or so cells, but I had order an extra 46 anyways so it didn't matter.

It also helps that I let the cells aside after a full charge for a week or so simply because of the balancing process. Any cell that self-discharged I knew wasn't good. No FLIR yet but I'd love if :)

If you think 70 cents per cell is good, batteryhookup has 35 cent cells at the same time... They were in worse condition at a pretty low capacity though so I passed on that.

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, second BMS is included as well, it has a whole bunch of safety features and will be in series with the Bosch one so that it gets first say in cutting out. Though likely the whole Bosch BMS would evaporate if that pack ever shorts out through the BMS :) But that one didn't have the ability to actively balance the pack (which I don't know if I'll ever need but better safe than sorry, once sealed I'd like to keep i…

Hmm, why are you putting the Bosch BMS in series? Is it going to turn off unless it detects a load? I'd simply not connect it's phase wires, but it's possible the Bosch magic won't let that work. Thankfully I didn't have to spot-weld. I used cells from modem batteries, so they were already spot welded - I was able to very rapidly solder to the spot welded tabs which already had some spots to run balance wire through,…

The Bosch BMS is a pretty clever little device, it governs not only the charge discharge cycle but also keeps track of the state-of-charge, and reports the remaining capacity in % to the controller via a CANBUS link, which - annoyingly - also features as auhtorization to release the motor, using some challenge-response system that to date nobody has managed to crack (though some people spent a lot of time trying to do so). So you can output voltage from the pack all you want, without the proper authentication your motor will not turn.

So that's why you really need that Bosch BMS. Then the bad news: the Bosch BMS is on the edge of what's safe, the FETs are underpowered (just a hair under rated maximum current and voltage), not cooled, there is a 40V Schottky diode there which regularly operates at or even slightly above it's ratings, there is a single chip DC-DC convertor which also isn't cooled properly and which tends to blow. So I don't particularly trust the Bosch BMS from a safety perspective, I've seen a whole bunch of these now (about 15) and a good number of them had blown up. And that's with the standard battery. The one that I'll be hooking up to it is four times more powerful. Any short circuit protection in the old BMS is going to be terribly undersized so I need something in series with the Bosch BMS to ensure that if there ever is a short (say in the motor) that it's the battery that gets disconnected well before the wiring goes and I simply do not trust the Bosch BMS not to fail 'closed' in which case the whole thing will turn into a giant fuse. That's the kind of scenario that I can really do without.

On more than one pack that I've opened I've found evidence of small fires, typically BMS balancing wires that shorted out (there are no fuses there, obviously) and that could have ended quite badly. The wires from the pack to the motor are substantially thicker so then the question is what cuts out first: the BMS or the wires. I simply want to play that as safe as possible and aim for the disconnect to happen fast enough that the wiring doesn't light up.

Another option is a very fast fuse in line with the battery terminals, that's definitely a possibility as well (and easier to mount and less chance of it in turn breaking than yet another BMS in series). Anyway, work in progress and to be continued, nice to find someone on HN who has a lot of knowledge about this!

Waiting for a while to see if there is a self discharge is a very good method to spot flawed cells before you assemble a pack but such defects can also develop at a later date, so please do keep a good eye on your pack, especially if - as I suspect - you are using reclaimed batteries, you can't be 100% sure that they have never been deep discharged.

Safety is one of the main reasons why I decided to go with brand new high capacity brand name cells, yes, it's a lot of money, but even so, the whole thing will cost about as much as a 600 Wh commercially available pack for this bike and have more than 3 times the capacity (and a better form factor to boot, and will last a lot longer).

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, totally forgot to provide a link to it [0]. I bought a cargo version specifically to use as a total car replacement. It has a 300lb capacity, so that's the why of the big motor. I wish I had done it sooner. I've only had it a couple of weeks, but I've already used it for trips to the hardware store, grocery trips, firewood (i'm sure some people laughed at that), and all sorts of stuff I'd have never attempted…

Ah! Now I get why you have those power requirements, ok. Indeed, you'll need a good sized battery to keep that moving for any duration. We have a 'regular' pedal bike, a Christiania older model cargo bike, it did duty for the last six years as child transportation, every day, rain or shine and still runs great (and we are not even the first owner), just basic maintenance. They're very useful. I've been toying with th…

Why motorize the front wheels? Wouldn't a larger moter in the back, similar to the one I have, be easier. Motorizing 1 wheels seems much more simple than 2 to me. Couldn't you get into a situation where one wheel is slipping or sticking compared to the other requiring different logic for current being applied to each?

Re: BYD has reportedly received 10 GWh of orders from Tesla for LFP batteries

#150
How many cars would this power: about 100k-200k cars.

10,000 megawatt hours. A single car today has ~50-100 kwh. An S 85D from 5 years ago used 85kwh, a 3 uses less than that today.

How many cars is this? 10,000 mwh / 0.1 mwh = 100k cars worth of batteries. Tesla is already at 1 million cars per year run rate, at least 1/3 are from China, so 300k are using LiFePO4 (I think all their Chinese-produced cars use lifepo4). That is a lot of batteries but not that many cars on top of what they already build.

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