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Stop Calling Everything AI, Machine-Learning Pioneer Says

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Re: Stop Calling Everything AI, Machine-Learning Pioneer Says

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument is wrong or miscommunicated. The AI itself can figure only some of the halting problem results, not all, plus it can make a mistake. It is not an oracle. Recursive neural networks are not necessarily halting when executed in arbitrary precision arithmetic.

Have you read the referenced article?

I’ve read a fair portion of it now (at least, a fair portions as far as reading on one’s phone goes), but not all of it yet, and while I do think it seems to probably be making some interesting points, I do feel like it is taking a fair bit of time to get to the point?

Maybe that’s partly due to the expectations of the medium, but I feel like it could be much more concise to, instead of saying, “here is a non-rigorous version of an argument which was previously presented at [other location] (note that while we believe the argument as we are presenting it is essentially the same as it was presented, we are making this different choice of terminology). Now, here is a reason why that argument is insufficiently rigorous, and a way in which that lack of rigor could be used to prove too much. Now, here is a more rigorous valid version of the argument (with various additional side tangents)”, one could instead say “Let objects X,Y,Z satisfy properties P,Q,R. Then, see this argument. Now, to see what this is applicable to the situations that it is meant to represent, [blah].”

Re: Stop Calling Everything AI, Machine-Learning Pioneer Says

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. Apparently my phone has "AI" because it recognises a flower as a flower and applies a colour filter and background blur when I use my camera. This is not AI. By the same extension of logic, any program that recognises input data and performs some form of pre-programmed logic is AI. ie. any computer program?

When young children start recognizing shapes, animals, colors, etc, you don’t consider that a sign of intelligence? What is it a sign of then?

I certainly consider that exemplar child intelligent. I'm happy to consider my pet dogs intelligent - some more than others:). And they are all leagues ahead of any "artificial" systems we've got.

And sorry, I don't have a definition of intelligence - but that's exactly the point. However I would require any definition of intelligence to include flexibility, self-awareness, world-modelling, curiousity, and goal setting.

Flexibility is surely one of the things that distinguishes a chess machine (or chatbot, or image recognition) from a child or a dog - the latter recognise and adapt to new situations & environments. Self-awareness seems a requirement for own goal-setting. Curiousity and world-modelling go together, and world-modelling is presumably required for exploring own goal-setting (a random walk is not intelligence).

All these things are so many worlds distant from google lens, or Big Blue.

Re: Stop Calling Everything AI, Machine-Learning Pioneer Says

#113
post #69
post #4

Michael I. Jordan is spot on. We have NO artificial intelligent systems, for any sensible definition of "intelligent". None. ZERO. We have "big data". We have (brittle and rather poor) "pattern recognition". We have (very limited) "simulate a conversation". But we do not even know what "intelligence" really means! We (the industry) should recognise "AI" as term that has become essentially meaningless. "AI" is now not…

Check out Convolutional Neural Networks. They learn from example images, progressively improving as you train it more, and you can see that the deeper the level, the more abstract the recognition becomes, going from simple shapes and edges to full on eyes, a figure of a person or a car, etc in deeper layers. It's absolutely learned intelligence, not to be confused with sentience. Remember, a critical part of human in…

"a critical part of human intelligence is pattern recognition" almost certainly true. But a wheel is a critical part of a car, but a wheel is not a car.

Re: Stop Calling Everything AI, Machine-Learning Pioneer Says

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Run it for as long as you want and look at the output state. How do you the a value out of a person?

So then in the statement of the theorem the agent A can determine how many cycles the unit will run before halting, correct?

By determine do you mean predict or choose?

Re: Stop Calling Everything AI, Machine-Learning Pioneer Says

#115
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are missing the point. A submarine "swims" in the same way an airplane "flies." But for some reason, in English anyway, we seem to define "swim" such that, by definition, only an animal can do it. Or at least, it must behave similarly to a swimming animal...such as by flapping fins and the like. Meanwhile we don't think an airplane doesn't fly simply because it doesn't flap its wings. The point is that se…

I don't know how useful/meaningful any of this is? It's just language quirks, and different languages have different quirks. In Hindi for example the verb 'to walk' is the same as ~'to operate' - so you can 'walk', and 'walk a bicycle', etc.

It's useful when someone asks things like "will machines ever be able to think?"

And you might say "well, define 'think' ". In other words, that's not that interesting a question, since it is more about semantics than about reality.

Or you say it as Djykstra did, which I think is pretty clever.

And yes, your example about how words differ in different languages does a good job of explaining how this is just semantics. If a question becomes moot in a different language, it is a good indicator that the question is less about reality than it is about semantics.

Re: Stop Calling Everything AI, Machine-Learning Pioneer Says

#116
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you read the referenced article?

I’ve read a fair portion of it now (at least, a fair portions as far as reading on one’s phone goes), but not all of it yet, and while I do think it seems to probably be making some interesting points, I do feel like it is taking a fair bit of time to get to the point? Maybe that’s partly due to the expectations of the medium, but I feel like it could be much more concise to, instead of saying, “here is a non-rigorou…

Ya, it could be more concise but I think that would require more prerequisites from the reader in terms of model theory and formal logic.

Re: Stop Calling Everything AI, Machine-Learning Pioneer Says

#117
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then in the statement of the theorem the agent A can determine how many cycles the unit will run before halting, correct?

By determine do you mean predict or choose?

I mean by looking at the source code for the neural network someone can give an upper bound on how many steps will be required before the entire network halts and gives an answer and they can prove that their upper bound is really an upper bound.

Re: Stop Calling Everything AI, Machine-Learning Pioneer Says

#118

My background is in automation and robotics; I studied system identification: a discipline where you would use mathematical means to identify a dynamic system model by observing input/output. You treat the system as a black box and estimate a set of parameters that can describe it (e.g., Kalman filter). I struggle to understand what's the fundamental difference between system identification and ML/AI. Anyone? You ult…

> It all comes down to a big optimization/interpolation problem. Isn't what they call "Learning" just really "estimating" ?

Yes.

A mathematician will say "why do you call this 'back propagation', isn't it just matrix multiplication?" Many disciplines have different names for the same process.

Re: Stop Calling Everything AI, Machine-Learning Pioneer Says

#119
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By determine do you mean predict or choose?

I mean by looking at the source code for the neural network someone can give an upper bound on how many steps will be required before the entire network halts and gives an answer and they can prove that their upper bound is really an upper bound.

They need to know the input length too. With an infinite input it will never halt.

Re: Stop Calling Everything AI, Machine-Learning Pioneer Says

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean by looking at the source code for the neural network someone can give an upper bound on how many steps will be required before the entire network halts and gives an answer and they can prove that their upper bound is really an upper bound.

They need to know the input length too. With an infinite input it will never halt.

Yes, that's the usual assumption when working with Turing machines and proofs. But I guess you could also allow infinite inputs and it wouldn't make that much difference, e.g. computing exp(x) for some real x as input.
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