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Online abuse: banning anonymous social media accounts is not the answer

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Re: Online abuse: banning anonymous social media accounts is not the answer

#161
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard a discussion on the radio where a lady was describing the potential use of a third party identity provider for all social media. This would be instead of the government. If I understood it correctly, the third party would hold your ID etc, and would vouch for you on signup to services. Users would be anonymous/pseudonymous until a warrant was acquired by the police. A third party would be better IMO than the…

I don't think having a third party instead of government control would be any better because the Snowden leaks showed us that the intelligence agencies will simply secretly co-opt the service to their own ends.

Yes, and I'm surprised that mandatory data retention by ISPs hasn't already gone further down that slippery slope.

Now that people are used to that idea, I expect a government to say "Why don't you store the logs on our computers instead, to save money and be protected with military-grade security. We promise we will still go to the hassle of getting a warrant before reading from the database... Unless of course there's an emergency...".

Perhaps the reason they haven't said this yet is because government cyber-security agencies have already gained real-time unwarranted access to the ISPs' logs. I don't suppose a company could be sued for not correctly securing this data against the government, since the government could hide behind "national security" to block any evidence being admitted in a court case.

Re: Online abuse: banning anonymous social media accounts is not the answer

#162
post #65
post #23

Anonymity is important because it allows you to have discussions purely based on the arguments and opinions, without the bias of who youre talking to. I often find myself having a wonderfully deep discussion with someone online, and when I eventually find out what they look like (etc), I often realize that they dont look as friendly, educated, etc as they are. Humans are really bad at this, and you will put people in…

I just discussed this with a bunch of my friends. If you're having a high level technical exchange with somebody that you don't know, then you find out that that other person is a female, you're really impressed, that a girl will be that good at this very technical topic. If, OTOH, you find out that that other person is a black guy (assuming you're white), you go through one of two reactions: If you're opinion of bla…

I'm white and a male and I don't share any of these expectations when I interview or speak to folks. I'm further saddened that anyone thinks there's an expectation enough of white people or men that is concrete enough to put it in plaintext like this.

In my head, this is an example of a problem moderation or lack of anonymity won't fix. People have to learn to see this kind of comment for the dud that it is on their own.

Re: Online abuse: banning anonymous social media accounts is not the answer

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's ridiculous that bots, trolls, and sockpuppets are given the same esteem and protections as real people. Agreed. I think any talk of the problems of online anonymity should be focused on bots first and foremost. From my understanding, it's pretty easy to detect like 90% of bot users. Can't we go after those instead? I don't really care that real people online can be mean anonymously, because at the end of the d…

> it's pretty easy to detect like 90% of bot users How to tell someone’s never worked on anti-abuse at scale

That's unfair. I was in charge of anti-abuse for a dating site with millions of users and my gut reaction was "just 90%?".

The problem with anti-abuse at scale isn't catching the 90-99%. It is the remaining 1%. Have 10M abuse accounts with a 99% success rate and you are left with 100k spam accounts. That, and making sure you aren't catching too many innocent customers in your efforts.

Re: Online abuse: banning anonymous social media accounts is not the answer

#164
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The freedom to do the worst is also the freedom to do the best. That is an unavoidable universal law. Look at instances where the conversation is forced to respect conventional values. It's death. Conformity and moronic mob-politics becomes the norm. So norm that you forget that there was anything better. (Reddit and Facebook are 2 notorious cases of this.) 4chan is sharp and smart. And infantile and vile. And someti…

>4chan is sharp and smart. Well, it can be. But the main boards usually aren't. A lot of smart people have left the platform. What's left is mostly "bad" people who have nowhere else to go: nazis, child molesters, edgy teenagers and so on.

Sounds like you got offended there. It's a short hop with eyes-closed from "offended" to "moral condemnation".

Our greatest artists and thinkers have been condemned throughout history. Censored too. Consider that.

Re: Online abuse: banning anonymous social media accounts is not the answer

#165
post #65
post #23

Anonymity is important because it allows you to have discussions purely based on the arguments and opinions, without the bias of who youre talking to. I often find myself having a wonderfully deep discussion with someone online, and when I eventually find out what they look like (etc), I often realize that they dont look as friendly, educated, etc as they are. Humans are really bad at this, and you will put people in…

I just discussed this with a bunch of my friends. If you're having a high level technical exchange with somebody that you don't know, then you find out that that other person is a female, you're really impressed, that a girl will be that good at this very technical topic. If, OTOH, you find out that that other person is a black guy (assuming you're white), you go through one of two reactions: If you're opinion of bla…

[deleted]

Re: Online abuse: banning anonymous social media accounts is not the answer

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The conversation didn’t start with that. The conversation started with widespread abuse online originating from anonymous accounts. Communities without abuse problems never even float the idea of banning anonymity. One reason being it’s extremely expensive to do that if not effectively impossible.

> Communities without abuse problems never even float the idea of banning anonymity. This implies that many communities with anonymity don't face abuse problems, so anonymity is not the root of the problem. Maybe the problem lies in the subject matter that the community handles and the sort of people that attracts.

Anonymity makes abuse easier. It diminishes the cost to the abuser and places almost all of the cost on the victim. I would also recommend that you not be so quick to push the blame back on 'the community', because when you do so you tend to end up with the gatekeepers for those communities being forced to shoulder the cost and then we end up with twitter bans, Facebook moderation, and a lot of pearl clutching by the online free speech brigade. Most of the general pubic puts up with anonymity, but they certainly do not demand it and if it becomes too costly or too toxic they seem happy to chuck it overboard.

Re: Online abuse: banning anonymous social media accounts is not the answer

#167
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is troubling logic if we expand it to other areas. For example, what if someone says "Let's ban killing other people"? Is it enough to point out that sometimes killing people saves the lives of other people? Should we outlaw killing in self defense? Should we outlaw killing people who are an imminent threat like active shooters? If you agree that sometimes killing can be justified, does that mean we need to allo…

I agree with that. My concern, and what I assume is the concern of others, is that those putting these regulations in place would have neither the knowledge or intentions to consider that nuance. Considering that nuance myself, I don't think I could properly implement such laws.

"It is hard to make a good law" is a bad reason to stop people from even trying.

Re: Online abuse: banning anonymous social media accounts is not the answer

#168
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's enough to convince vulnerable people who are calling out the misdeeds of the powerful. Vulnerable people like the trans community that is often the victim in this type of anonymous social media abuse? Are they allowed to call out the powerful and disproportionately white straight cis men who control social media companies and allow this abuse to continue? I just find it funny that you are using an argument that…

You know... I'm starting to think you are correct to be entirely honest. If anonimity is banned we can actually see who is part of those twitter cancel mobs and actually fine and imprison those harassing other people and send death threats. 50% /s I'm 100% against it tbh. There are people that would be dead without it(just in case anyone missed the sarcasm)

>I'm 100% against it tbh. There are people that would be dead without it(just in case anyone missed the sarcasm)

There are also people who are dead because of the abuse they took on social media. Once again, the same argument from both sides.

Re: Online abuse: banning anonymous social media accounts is not the answer

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who was a long time user of 4chan and that believed this once before, I now adamantly disagree that total anonymity leads to better discussion and believe that 4chan and the like are ultimately failed experiments. With total anonymity you end up with trolls or people who are just seriously misinformed arguing vigorously. You can spend the time and present arguments to possibly convince an actual reasonable…

4chan's failure to me has little to do with perceived anonymity, and a lot more to do with the culture of an online community, what is tolerated within that community, where the red lines are, and how this is enforced. And "gamification" plays a role, i.e. virtual online points of some sort, be it "likes", be it "karma", be it "upvotes". Compare 4chan to HN, which is also open to anybody like 4chan, allows anonymous…

>which may encourage people to cross lines as there is no way for the community to sanction such behavior.

It's also hard for some people to understand that individuals who hold extreme views and use poor sources/facts could, in fact, be people who actually hold those views. They're not trolls. They're not doing it to get a rise out of you. Sometimes, those people are legitimate in their beliefs, regardless of how ass-backwards they are.

And I don't know why people don't understand that.

Re: Online abuse: banning anonymous social media accounts is not the answer

#170

Why not go the other way, and make all social broadcasts be anonymous? Then we would talk about policies instead of personalities. It just becomes ideas and thoughts in the cloud.

"Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people."
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