COVID vaccine injury claims mount, but recourse is lacking for those harmed • Hacker News Board

Re: COVID vaccine injury claims mount, but recourse is lacking for those harmed

#51

Post by AndrewBissell » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 12:51 PM UTC

nuerow wrote: post #49

AndrewBissell wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What other sort of benefit is there supposed to be? The reduction in infection and transmission risk for Delta from the vaccines is marginal at best, wanes quickly, and might well be defeated completely by future variants. If we're acknowledging that the immediate risk tradeoff might be negative, these would be the first vaccines in history that people were widely expected to take on those terms.

> The reduction in infection and transmission risk for Delta from the vaccines is marginal at best, wanes quickly, and might well be defeated completely by future variants. In case you are unaware, reducing the spread of a virus also lowers the odds of sparking new variants, not to mention the fact that limiting or eliminating the spread of a virus also contains and limits the risk posed by new variants.

I hear this point raised often with no scientific evidence ever offered to back it up. Actually, some recent research found that the vaccinated were more likely to host antibody-resistant escape variants (in this case Delta): https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.19.21262139v...

A similar effect has been observed for leaky vaccines in chickens, where for Marek's disease they actually encouraged the breeding of hotter and more virulent strains.

In terms of playing host to new variants the biggest risk may be the immunocompromised, who are not able to be vaccinated: https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/03/11/immunocompr...

Re: COVID vaccine injury claims mount, but recourse is lacking for those harmed

#52

Post by nuerow » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 1:40 PM UTC

AndrewBissell wrote: post #51

nuerow wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reduction in infection and transmission risk for Delta from the vaccines is marginal at best, wanes quickly, and might well be defeated completely by future variants. In case you are unaware, reducing the spread of a virus also lowers the odds of sparking new variants, not to mention the fact that limiting or eliminating the spread of a virus also contains and limits the risk posed by new variants.

I hear this point raised often with no scientific evidence ever offered to back it up. Actually, some recent research found that the vaccinated were more likely to host antibody-resistant escape variants (in this case Delta): https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.19.21262139v... A similar effect has been observed for leaky vaccines in chickens, where for Marek's disease they actually encouraged the breeding…

> I hear this point raised often with no scientific evidence ever offered to back it up.

Oh really? In that case I'm sorry to tell you that you are totally oblivious to how very basic princples of biology work.

Here's a helpful reading.

https://now.tufts.edu/articles/how-viruses-mutate-and-create...

It's litteraly the first search hit from a very basic google search, which goes to show how well informed is your remark on "no scientific evidence".

Re: COVID vaccine injury claims mount, but recourse is lacking for those harmed

#53

Post by peteradio » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 1:53 PM UTC

nuerow wrote: post #43

Factorium wrote: post #10

https://investinganswers.com/articles/10-most-popular-stocks... Top stock owned by members of congress - Pfizer #6 Johnson and Johnson #7 Moderna stock up 387% YoY: https://investinganswers.com/articles/10-most-popular-stocks... Bill Gates invested $55million into BioNTech in October 2019: https://investors.biontech.de/news-releases/news-release-det... Why are people with COVID antibodies from successful recovery for…

> Why are people with COVID antibodies from successful recovery forced to get vaccines? "Successful recoveries" alone is not an indication that you are now immune to COVID-19 or able to handle a reinfection well. There are reported cases of reinfections, with the second COVID-19 infection being far more serious and even deadly. Also, it has been observed that vaccination ensures a better antibody response to some var…

When you get to "reported cases of" anecdotes that the researchers were specifically targeting to find you might want to consider the reduction factors involved. Or even the potential for selecting a biased dataset based on false positives.

Correct interpretation of research is more important than finding this or that paper. Kentucky study was not about antibody response so I'm not sure how you are using that to back up your assertion. Instead it was a theoretically more direct look in to patient outcomes, however follow own studies over larger populations seem to be in tension with the Kentucky result.

Re: COVID vaccine injury claims mount, but recourse is lacking for those harmed

#54

Post by HelixEndeavor » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 2:09 PM UTC

nuerow wrote: post #43

Factorium wrote: post #10

https://investinganswers.com/articles/10-most-popular-stocks... Top stock owned by members of congress - Pfizer #6 Johnson and Johnson #7 Moderna stock up 387% YoY: https://investinganswers.com/articles/10-most-popular-stocks... Bill Gates invested $55million into BioNTech in October 2019: https://investors.biontech.de/news-releases/news-release-det... Why are people with COVID antibodies from successful recovery for…

> Why are people with COVID antibodies from successful recovery forced to get vaccines? "Successful recoveries" alone is not an indication that you are now immune to COVID-19 or able to handle a reinfection well. There are reported cases of reinfections, with the second COVID-19 infection being far more serious and even deadly. Also, it has been observed that vaccination ensures a better antibody response to some var…

"reported cases" is not the same thing as "statistics show." As someone who was diagnosed with COVID in August, was out of commission for a week and a half, and recovered fully, I'll need more convincing than "this happened once, maybe even twice" to believe it's worth it to get the shot.

Re: COVID vaccine injury claims mount, but recourse is lacking for those harmed

#55

Post by nuerow » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 3:17 PM UTC

HelixEndeavor wrote: post #54

nuerow wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why are people with COVID antibodies from successful recovery forced to get vaccines? "Successful recoveries" alone is not an indication that you are now immune to COVID-19 or able to handle a reinfection well. There are reported cases of reinfections, with the second COVID-19 infection being far more serious and even deadly. Also, it has been observed that vaccination ensures a better antibody response to some var…

"reported cases" is not the same thing as "statistics show." As someone who was diagnosed with COVID in August, was out of commission for a week and a half, and recovered fully, I'll need more convincing than "this happened once, maybe even twice" to believe it's worth it to get the shot.

> "reported cases" is not the same thing as "statistics show."

Do you understand that statistics are calculated from reported cases? I mean, statistics is literally the discipline that concerns the collection, organization, analysis, interpretation, and presentation of data.

Re: COVID vaccine injury claims mount, but recourse is lacking for those harmed

#56

Post by native_samples » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 3:24 PM UTC

phonypc wrote: post #50

native_samples wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correlation doesn't imply causation but causation always implies correlation. The claim that national databases of reports of symptoms occurring just days after a vaccination "cannot be used to infer" anything is just obviously not true. Of course they can be used to infer things. That's the justification for collecting the data in the first place, to enable such inferences. To believe nothing can be inferred from th…

The medical establishment is not trying to convince everyone that systems like VAERS are useless . That might be a hyperbolic talking point in some circles on Twitter. The issue is mis using the systems. They exist to generate evidence of possible correlations between adverse events and vaccines, for further investigation. Not so that anyone can infer the real rate of events or causation. > reports of symptoms occurr…

I'm afraid that's not what I've seen. So far there have been several studies by professional researchers that got published using VAERS data which were then forcibly retracted (against the will of the researchers themselves), the stated grounds being that they were "correlational". The message is clear now - you may not use VAERS or equivalent data for anything, regardless of who you are.

W.R.T. just days: indeed, they collect other reports. However within 1-3 days seems to be most common. Reports are strongly weighted towards happening quickly. See the histogram here:

https://openvaers.com/covid-data/mortality

Re: COVID vaccine injury claims mount, but recourse is lacking for those harmed

#57

Post by phonypc » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 4:30 PM UTC

native_samples wrote: post #56

phonypc wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The medical establishment is not trying to convince everyone that systems like VAERS are useless . That might be a hyperbolic talking point in some circles on Twitter. The issue is mis using the systems. They exist to generate evidence of possible correlations between adverse events and vaccines, for further investigation. Not so that anyone can infer the real rate of events or causation. > reports of symptoms occurr…

I'm afraid that's not what I've seen. So far there have been several studies by professional researchers that got published using VAERS data which were then forcibly retracted (against the will of the researchers themselves), the stated grounds being that they were "correlational". The message is clear now - you may not use VAERS or equivalent data for anything, regardless of who you are. W.R.T. just days: indeed, th…

Ya, "correlational" is a legitimate criticism of a study based on VAERS data that wasn't presented as such. Anyway, I'm not aware of studies being retracted as you describe. Certainly there have been problematic pre-prints (never published) making the rounds

Re: COVID vaccine injury claims mount, but recourse is lacking for those harmed

#58

Post by AndrewBissell » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 4:39 PM UTC

nuerow wrote: post #52

AndrewBissell wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear this point raised often with no scientific evidence ever offered to back it up. Actually, some recent research found that the vaccinated were more likely to host antibody-resistant escape variants (in this case Delta): https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.19.21262139v... A similar effect has been observed for leaky vaccines in chickens, where for Marek's disease they actually encouraged the breeding…

> I hear this point raised often with no scientific evidence ever offered to back it up. Oh really? In that case I'm sorry to tell you that you are totally oblivious to how very basic princples of biology work. Here's a helpful reading. https://now.tufts.edu/articles/how-viruses-mutate-and-create... It's litteraly the first search hit from a very basic google search, which goes to show how well informed is your remar…

This isn't scientific evidence, it's theoretical discussion and a priori reasoning.

Re: COVID vaccine injury claims mount, but recourse is lacking for those harmed

#59

Post by mullingitover » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 8:58 PM UTC

AndrewBissell wrote: post #51

nuerow wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reduction in infection and transmission risk for Delta from the vaccines is marginal at best, wanes quickly, and might well be defeated completely by future variants. In case you are unaware, reducing the spread of a virus also lowers the odds of sparking new variants, not to mention the fact that limiting or eliminating the spread of a virus also contains and limits the risk posed by new variants.

I hear this point raised often with no scientific evidence ever offered to back it up. Actually, some recent research found that the vaccinated were more likely to host antibody-resistant escape variants (in this case Delta): https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.19.21262139v... A similar effect has been observed for leaky vaccines in chickens, where for Marek's disease they actually encouraged the breeding…

> In terms of playing host to new variants the biggest risk may be the immunocompromised, who are not able to be vaccinated

The immunocompromised absolutely can be vaccinated, it just might not work as well for them, see: Powell, Colin

The best way to keep these immunocompromised people from becoming infected and playing host to a variant factory is to vaccinate everyone around them, even 19 year olds and elementary students who themselves aren't in as high of a risk category personally. The fact that the vaccine isn't perfect only makes it more essential that everyone is vaccinated - if the vaccine were perfect we might get to herd immunity with 70% of the population vaccinated, but with a less effective vaccine we need even higher numbers to get there. The vaccine hesitant are only dragging out the pandemic further and creating new risks.

Re: COVID vaccine injury claims mount, but recourse is lacking for those harmed

#60

Post by AndrewBissell » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 9:47 PM UTC

mullingitover wrote: post #59

AndrewBissell wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear this point raised often with no scientific evidence ever offered to back it up. Actually, some recent research found that the vaccinated were more likely to host antibody-resistant escape variants (in this case Delta): https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.19.21262139v... A similar effect has been observed for leaky vaccines in chickens, where for Marek's disease they actually encouraged the breeding…

> In terms of playing host to new variants the biggest risk may be the immunocompromised, who are not able to be vaccinated The immunocompromised absolutely can be vaccinated, it just might not work as well for them, see: Powell, Colin The best way to keep these immunocompromised people from becoming infected and playing host to a variant factory is to vaccinate everyone around them , even 19 year olds and elementary…

"The worse the vaccines work the more we need to mandate them"?

Herd immunity is not going to happen with Covid, it's a pipe dream. Certainly not with vaccines with a peak 37% effectiveness against the currently dominant variant which wanes after a few months (cf. the Nature article I referenced elsewhere in the thread), never mind ones that might arise in the future in response to evolutionary pressures created by mass vaccination.

The vaccine hesitant are not dragging out the "pandemic," the people complying with undemocratic diktats and mandates are. The people running this show have no intention of ever letting you go back to normal -- the draconian restrictions still being applied to 95%+ vaccinated college campuses make this clear.

If you need counterexamples to your baseless notion that mass vaccination will prevent COVID outbreaks have a look at Singapore or Gibraltar, or the case studies of outbreaks in 95% vaccinated hospitals and care homes. But I suppose there is no evidence that could possibly change your mind on this -- after all, the worse the vaccines are, the more we need to push them on people.