Willingness to look stupid • Hacker News Board

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#301

Post by kevinmgranger » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 2:10 PM UTC

cycomanic wrote: post #42

sillysaurusx wrote: post #2

> Going into an Apple store and asking for (and buying) the computer that comes in the smallest box, which I had a good reason to want at the time > The person who helped me, despite being very polite, also clearly thought I was a bozo and kept explaining things like "the size of the box and the size of the computer aren't the same". Of course I knew that, but I didn't want to say something like "I design CPUs. I und…

I have to say this part (and quite a few other parts of the post) come across as quite arrogant. I mean if he really wants the computer with the smallest box, why can't he explain why. I agree with the general gist of the post: don't be afraid to ask stupid questions. However, the post has an underlying "feeling" of "my questions are not really stupid, I'm just so smart that others don't realise". I know that I ask p…

I think this interaction is an example of what "the customer is always right" is supposed to mean. Sure, the salesperson should verify that the person isn't using mistaken terminology, but past that, why not just help them? Or why didn't the salesperson take the initiative to ask them for the reason, instead of continuing to insist they were mistaken?

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#302

Post by hnfong » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 2:11 PM UTC

josh2600 wrote: post #163

dusted wrote: post #50

When I was younger, I often met people who seemed kind of dim to me, at first, and later found the majority of them to be orders of magnitude brighter than me. It was not hard to connect the dots, the reason they were so much brighter was (in part) exactly because of what made them initially seem dim.. They asked questions, honestly. Not the showoff kind of question you ask to show how much you know, but real, honest…

Confucius says there are 3 ways to gain wisdom: Imitation, which is easiest. Meditation, which is noblest. Experience, which is bitterest. Anytime I learn anything new, I imitate until I can’t anymore, then I meditate to understand why I think I can’t imitate anymore, then I experience my meditation, then I go back to mediating based on that experience. Repeat until you can’t OODA loop effectively anymore.

I don't think Confucius said that.

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#303

Post by SquishyPanda23 » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 2:12 PM UTC

dusted wrote: post #50

When I was younger, I often met people who seemed kind of dim to me, at first, and later found the majority of them to be orders of magnitude brighter than me. It was not hard to connect the dots, the reason they were so much brighter was (in part) exactly because of what made them initially seem dim.. They asked questions, honestly. Not the showoff kind of question you ask to show how much you know, but real, honest…

> the reason they were so much brighter was (in part) exactly because of what made them initially seem dim

The causality also goes the other way. Very smart people see their limitations more clearly and so tend to be humbler about what they know.

They realize they can learn from others and so ask a lot of questions that others might feel foolish asking.

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#304

Post by joeberon » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 2:12 PM UTC

torben-friis wrote: post #126

I get the appeal of minimalism in the format, but at the very least some margins or a max line length would be welcome. Having to read this with lines extending all across the screen is ridiculous.

Unfortunately common among many technical users, they have no sense of page design whatsoever, and instead go for the "raw data" approach. It is bizarre

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#305

Post by Zababa » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 2:13 PM UTC

WA wrote: post #221

Zababa wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would the clerk need to know that, and why would the reader need to know that? Do you need a justification for buying something from a store? I think that's the lesson here. If you think he needed to give justification, you may still consider him stupid in a way.

> Why would the clerk need to know that Because most average users ask for one thing, but actually need something else and it is the job of a service person to get down to what the customer actually wants. Disclosing intent of unusual requests helps to find a solution in a faster way. It's also respectful to the clerk. Furthermore, people are more willing to cooperate if they know a reason. > why would the reader nee…

> Because most average users ask for one thing, but actually need something else and it is the job of a service person to get down to what the customer actually wants. Disclosing intent of unusual requests helps to find a solution in a faster way.

As I said elsewhere, I think it's an instance of the XY problem and we agree here, but I think the response of the clerk could have been something like "I have a lot of clients that ask for X when they need Y. If I give them X, they may come back and complain, and it will be a mistake on my part. So I'm sorry if I'm being too insistent with it, but I really need to be sure that you want X and not Y, especially since your request sounds a lot like what people say when they want Y", to which you could reply "Oh I perfectly understand, I work in software and we have this all the time with clients, I would do the same thing in your place. I assure you, I really need X and not Y." or something.

> It's also respectful to the clerk.

It may be more respectful than what happened the way the thing was narrated, but I think there is nothing "respectful" about disclosing information you may not want to disclose, which seem to be the case here (or the author is being obtuse).

> That's what this post is about with a strong tendency that OP wants the reader to think that everybody judging him is stupid.

I don't agree about the intentions of the author here. My interpretation is that he found something cool, efficient, somewhat counterintuive and want to share it. That seems to be in line with his other posts.

> I don't think he's stupid, but I think if someone is being judged as stupid all the time, it might not always be the other people (what OP makes us want to believe), but the way how OP interacts with his environment.

That's very true too. We only have his version so that's a possibility.

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#306

Post by bambax » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 2:18 PM UTC

dotancohen wrote: post #147

HeckFeck wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reminds me of the simple brilliance of Socrates. He began from the premise that he knew nothing, and would ask all manner of simple questions building on top of the previous answers. It wasn't long before he uncovered how little everyone else actually knew, but what separated Socrates was his honesty: he knew nothing and admitted it. Naturally, the established powers and polite society didn't find this to their…

> Naturally, the established powers and polite society didn't find this to their liking. We all know how his story ended. Socrates was sentenced to death not for exposing how little everyone else knew. The esteemed philosopher was sentenced to death because he was deliberately annoying people - like a fly - with badgering questions that would force the questionee into a corner. Today we call this method of exposing c…

> The esteemed philosopher was sentenced to death because he was deliberately annoying people

No. Socrates was executed because he was associated with the worst rulers that the city of Athens had ever known, all former students of his, who notably went on to kill thousands of Athenian citizens (not enemies, strangers, or slaves), following the defeat in the Peloponnesian War.

After the tyrants were killed and democracy was restored, general amnesty law was granted to anyone involved except the Thirty Tyrants themselves and their direct aides. However resentment, understandably, remained.

> There was a lot of bad blood between the people of Athens and Socrates’ followers. That wouldn’t have been enough by itself. But the murder of between 5% and 15% of the citizen population in 404 must have pushed things over the edge. Imagine if Osama bin Laden, Timothy McVeigh, and Saddam Hussein had all had the same person as their ethics teacher: would you be very surprised if that person got harsh treatment from a jury? And would you then call that person a martyr?

http://kiwihellenist.blogspot.com/2016/04/socrates-1-did-soc...

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#307

Post by Zababa » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 2:19 PM UTC

chefandy wrote: post #280

Zababa wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, he doesn't spend much time talking about the case that could have him die or the one that could have him go blind. If something like that happened to me, I would probably have a position like the author. There are also a few cases (COVID, air filtration) where people disagreeing with him had relatively serious health consequences.

While this guy is clearly smart, and willingness to ask simple questions is a worthy quality that many people possess, this is an article about what happens when decent intelligence and a good instinct is accompanied by narcissism and delusions of grandeur. Being right about something feels even better if other people thought you were wrong about it. With his COVID action— people disagreeing with him, at first, wasn'…

> narcissism and delusions of grandeur

I'm not sure why you're painting him as having psychological issues based on a blog post.

> He said he started wearing N95s several days before the initial r0 estimate was even published, and that he based his opinion on SARS-CoV-1 data which many relevant experts didn't think was applicable. There's a reason they didn't jump to the same conclusions he did, and that reason is why they're experts.

The same experts that were telling the public that masks were useless in March 2020. Experts are not always giving the best recommendations for your specific case.

> Like I said, he's obviously a smart guy, but this whole 'they all laughed at me and look at me now!' narrative is just not that impressive.

That's a very uncharitable way of interpreting that blog post. I personally see it as "next time you feel too stupid to do something, think about that blog post and maybe I'll give you the strength needed to do something that will have a good outcome".

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#308

Post by ChrisMarshallNY » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 2:21 PM UTC

Heh.

My standard classroom experience is that I ask “dumb” questions all the time, often eliciting guffaws.

By the end of the class, though, everyone is asking me for help (even the guffaw people).

For me, really understanding the material is critical. I can’t deal with rote.

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#309

Post by bambax » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 2:22 PM UTC

Grustaf wrote: post #158

dotancohen wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Naturally, the established powers and polite society didn't find this to their liking. We all know how his story ended. Socrates was sentenced to death not for exposing how little everyone else knew. The esteemed philosopher was sentenced to death because he was deliberately annoying people - like a fly - with badgering questions that would force the questionee into a corner. Today we call this method of exposing c…

He was certainly very annoying, but his crime was misleading the youth, making them distrust authority.

No. That is a legend promoted by Plato. He was not making the "youth" (in general) distrust authority, he was going around telling the sons of nobility and highest ranking officials that democracy was a stupid idea and that they would be better off seizing power for themselves.

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#310

Post by theli0nheart » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 2:23 PM UTC

jacobolus wrote: post #135

josephg wrote: post #36

After a terrible breakup years ago I took a trapeze class. Before we got up on the trapeze bar, I spent most of the class telling everyone how bad I was going to be at it. When I got home I lay in bed confused. Why did I do that? This article is spot on. I was afraid of being seen to be bad at something. Have you noticed? We spend almost our entire adult lives doing things we’re good at. Anything we do that we’re bad…

> For me, it had been too long. I have a 5 year old and a 2.5 year old, and hang out with lots of small children. Fear of looking stupid as a beginner is something that most people have right from the start: I have watched kids be afraid of incompetence (to the point of not wanting to try) at riding a bike, running, swinging across monkey bars, drawing, singing, reading, learning a new language, ...

> Fear of looking stupid as a beginner is something that most people have right from the start

I'm a parent of a 5yo and surprised this is your experience. If anything, I'd say child behavior is the perfect anti-example of fear of trying new things.

Take one of the examples you provide: language. Young children ages don't care about using incorrect grammar or using the wrong words. This is why they're so good at progressing so quickly. Kids are way less afraid of failure than adults.

I also wouldn't be surprised if there's a significant environmental impact to children's behavior as well; in most ways, they're blank canvases when it comes to skill-based behavior. Personality...not so much.