Willingness to look stupid • Hacker News Board

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#271

Post by karmelapple » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 1:47 PM UTC

dangerface wrote: post #110

NiceWayToDoIT wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is measure of time, for author it looks simple to put everything in few words instead of having long explanation, I find this typical in IT, where my coworkers all the time trying to compress explanation in fewest words possible. Maybe laziness or type of optimization, but usually back fires as other people ask you multiple questions, arising from their own point of view.

[flagged]

> Non technical people only have the patience to learn / listen to very basic concepts.

I know many people who would consider themselves non-technical, yet who certainly take the time to learn complex concepts. Some of those are indeed technological concepts.

> I try to give short simple examples because when I try to tell people the truth their eyes glaze over and their brain turns off while the nerd talks his techno jumble.

The short simple examples you give are also truthful, correct?

Perhaps the additional information you'd like to explain simply isn't needed for the other person's goal.

A great way to have both technical and non-technical people's eyes glaze over is detailing all kinds of minute details before describing some of the high-level goals or giving context as to why you're getting so deep into the details. As you mention, simple examples can get a lot across, and can be a springboard to more questions being asked, to allow the other person to decide what depth of knowledge they would like to know.

The non-technical person you're talking to may very well have the patience to learn the deep technical truth you'd like to explain, but they may have no reason to know it. In the scenario you're thinking of, you're doing the technical work, not them, correct? So why would they need to know deep technical details? A basic outline, with some corner cases pointed out, is likely all they need. Not because they don't have patience to learn what you're explaining, but because they have other things that are more important to their or your organization's success.

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#272

Post by torben-friis » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 1:47 PM UTC

hoseja wrote: post #146

torben-friis wrote: post #126

I get the appeal of minimalism in the format, but at the very least some margins or a max line length would be welcome. Having to read this with lines extending all across the screen is ridiculous.

What's the screen for, then?

to visualize content in the best possible way?

4k screens can easily support ridiculously small font sizes, but you wouldn't decide to use that just because it's there. Similarly, you would not want 15 inches long lines of text completely breaking the concept of paragraphs just because your screen can reach that width.

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#273

Post by tux3 » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 1:47 PM UTC

Ensorceled wrote: post #247

alexandrerond wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally. There's distance between: "people think I'm stupid because I'm not scared to show that I don't know about something" and some of the examples which are more along the lines of "people think I'm stupid because I act as a self-entitled genius who provides little context or reasoning behind choices and expect everyone to line up behind with no question" What is the Apple store employee supposed to do to not mak…

> The insurance dealer does his job and tries to get a higher premium? Not surprised. This is actually an example of where the author IS stupid. You will often be found "at fault" in cases where you are not actually at fault (the other driver lies better than your truth) and there are many cases (at least in Ontario) where you are legislatively at fault even if you did nothing out of the ordinary (making a left turn…

In defense of the author, maybe they have a dashcam and that's what increases their confidence.

But that's where I see a problem: this (or another reasonable thing) is not something that would take long to explain.

Looking stupid is a failure of communication. You're right, but you failed to give enough rope for others to follow, and that wastes everyone's time.

The improvement I'd suggest is to dig into why someome thinks you look stupid. You could think "they must be stupid", but that, in itself, is an overly simplistic and inefficient model.

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#274

Post by Ensorceled » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 1:48 PM UTC

dade_ wrote: post #113

rmetzler wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that this is unfair to the poor Apple Store employee. There is no reason to not state the motivation, why you ask for the smallest box. Other than that, I also try to employ the naive question and to some people these might sound stupid. But they are really useful because they can clear up lots of implicit implications and misunderstandings.

Did the Apple store employee ask why he wanted a computer that comes in the smallest box, or did he just assume the customer is stupid or ignorant? He doesn’t say either way, but most people will make an assumption instead of asking. The downside to this approach in retail is that it invites a long story…

I expect Apple store employees to deal with both "I want the 15 inch MacBook Pro in Gun Metal Gray with 16GB ram and 1TB drive" and "I'm looking for a good laptop for my daughter for university but I don't know anything about computers"

Making any kind of judgments about their reaction to "I want the one that comes in the smallest box" is ludicrous; the behaviour itself is mildly sociopathic.

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#275

Post by asimjalis » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 1:49 PM UTC

An important factor here is that sometimes when people ask stupid questions they just haven’t done the homework. “Instead of doing a Google search let me blast an email to everyone at work.” It’s useful to give an indicator that you are asking at a deeper level. For example, briefly mention some of what you have found and why it is unsatisfactory.

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#276

Post by jb3689 » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 1:49 PM UTC

Majoring in math in college, I felt like this came up all of the time. Statistics is a prime example of a subject filled with subtle complexity and fairly wild/groundbreaking assumptions/insights that most people just accept as obvious fact for some reason

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#277

Post by createunderrate » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 1:50 PM UTC

Epictetus said something similar almost 2000 years ago: "If you want to improve, be content to be thought foolish and stupid with regard to external things. Don't wish to be thought to know anything; and even if you appear to be somebody important to others, distrust yourself. For, it is difficult to both keep your faculty of choice in a state conformable to nature, and at the same time acquire external things. But while you are careful about the one, you must of necessity neglect the other."

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#278

Post by dotancohen » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 1:50 PM UTC

Grustaf wrote: post #158

dotancohen wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Naturally, the established powers and polite society didn't find this to their liking. We all know how his story ended. Socrates was sentenced to death not for exposing how little everyone else knew. The esteemed philosopher was sentenced to death because he was deliberately annoying people - like a fly - with badgering questions that would force the questionee into a corner. Today we call this method of exposing c…

He was certainly very annoying, but his crime was misleading the youth, making them distrust authority.

That was his charge. The actual "crime" has been disputed for about two and a half millennia.

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#279

Post by Ensorceled » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 1:51 PM UTC

dangerface wrote: post #127

lukeholder wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but if that is true, why cause so much trouble and just said why you want the smallest box.

I think the sales person was causing the trouble tbh, if a customer knows what they want take the sale don't waste their time with 20 questions at the end of the day we both know the sales person was just trying to upsell the customer something they clearly didn't want. Its the sales persons job to take the hint and just make the sale tbh.

Yes, because every low level Apple retail employee wants to have the following conversation with their boss:

"The customer asked for the smallest box so I assumed they knew what they were doing and sold them that."

"No, I didn't ask any further questions, I wouldn't want to assume they were stupid. That would be wrong in this narrative."

"No, I don't know how exactly how much $$ Apple is going to lose on this return."

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#280

Post by chefandy » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 1:51 PM UTC

Zababa wrote: post #202

alexandrerond wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally. There's distance between: "people think I'm stupid because I'm not scared to show that I don't know about something" and some of the examples which are more along the lines of "people think I'm stupid because I act as a self-entitled genius who provides little context or reasoning behind choices and expect everyone to line up behind with no question" What is the Apple store employee supposed to do to not mak…

On the other hand, he doesn't spend much time talking about the case that could have him die or the one that could have him go blind. If something like that happened to me, I would probably have a position like the author. There are also a few cases (COVID, air filtration) where people disagreeing with him had relatively serious health consequences.

While this guy is clearly smart, and willingness to ask simple questions is a worthy quality that many people possess, this is an article about what happens when decent intelligence and a good instinct is accompanied by narcissism and delusions of grandeur. Being right about something feels even better if other people thought you were wrong about it.

With his COVID action— people disagreeing with him, at first, wasn't what had serious health consequences. He said he started wearing N95s several days before the initial r0 estimate was even published, and that he based his opinion on SARS-CoV-1 data which many relevant experts didn't think was applicable. There's a reason they didn't jump to the same conclusions he did, and that reason is why they're experts. He essentially won a bet talks about it like he figured out how to beat poker.

And if he recieved a torrent of negative feedback for his penchant for air filtering in 2012, that says a lot more about his friends and family than his very not radical adoption of home air filters less than 10 years ago? The whole sick building/mold aversion/exhaust fumes/smoke/spent cooking fuel/etc realm of AQ concerns has been a publicly accepted health concern waaaaaaaaaaaaaay longer than 2012. Sharper Image was making a mint off of their Ionic Breeze air purifier at least a decade before that.

Like I said, he's obviously a smart guy, but this whole 'they all laughed at me and look at me now!' narrative is just not that impressive.