Willingness to look stupid • Hacker News Board

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#221

Post by WA » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 1:11 PM UTC

Zababa wrote: post #205

WA wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, if we want to have a meta discussion, let me ask two stupid questions: Why did OP not tell the store clerk why a small box mattered? Why did OP not tell the reader why he didn't tell the clerk?

Why would the clerk need to know that, and why would the reader need to know that? Do you need a justification for buying something from a store? I think that's the lesson here. If you think he needed to give justification, you may still consider him stupid in a way.

> Why would the clerk need to know that

Because most average users ask for one thing, but actually need something else and it is the job of a service person to get down to what the customer actually wants. Disclosing intent of unusual requests helps to find a solution in a faster way. It's also respectful to the clerk. Furthermore, people are more willing to cooperate if they know a reason.

> why would the reader need to know that?

Because it stands out as an odd story and it is quite important to establish context if the reader wants to evaluate if OP asks objectively stupid questions, has a way of phrasing questions in a stupid way, or if the person asked truly thinks OP is stupid.

That's what this post is about with a strong tendency that OP wants the reader to think that everybody judging him is stupid. In a way, the post is a humble-brag.

> Do you need a justification for buying something from a store?

No, but if I make people run around for me, I'd rather give them a reason.

> I think that's the lesson here. If you think he needed to give justification, you may still consider him stupid in a way.

I don't think he's stupid, but I think if someone is being judged as stupid all the time, it might not always be the other people (what OP makes us want to believe), but the way how OP interacts with his environment.

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#222

Post by bo1024 » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 1:14 PM UTC

I’m in academia and willingness to look stupid (sometimes to be stupid) is an important and difficult skill that we try hard to train and almost all of my colleagues now have.

But I believe that it’s also very cultural and gendered so it’s not as easy or successful for everyone, unfortunately. (Adding) I mean not easy personality wise due o their background, OR not easy because people more often treat them as stupid given an excuse because of who they are or what they look like.

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#223

Post by ajuc » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 1:14 PM UTC

soneca wrote: post #170

KennyBlanken wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it happened , he purposefully chose a request that he knew would generate confusion and discomfort in a situation with someone he has power over. It reminds me of the high school bully who fake-punches you, knowing you'll react, and then punishing you for how you react. At best he purposefully made things more difficult than they had to be. She was absolutely right to think that he was a "bozo." I generally strive…

I don’t share your assumption that he purposefully made things more difficult. My assumption is that he really didn’t know which computer came in the smaller box (since, computer size, which is the public info about the product, doesn’t exactly correlate with the box size). My guess is that he wanted to know which, if any, impact a small box would potentially have on computer components (like different impact absorpt…

"Hi, I'm doing research on $WHATEVER_IT_WAS, could you show me the computer you sell in the smallest boxes?" would prevent the confusion and awkwardness. It seems he gets out of his way to encounter these situations which is kinda rude.

I still liked the article, I certainly have a problem with trying to avoid looking stupid too hard, at least in certain contexts.

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#224

Post by darkerside » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 1:15 PM UTC

dotancohen wrote: post #147

HeckFeck wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reminds me of the simple brilliance of Socrates. He began from the premise that he knew nothing, and would ask all manner of simple questions building on top of the previous answers. It wasn't long before he uncovered how little everyone else actually knew, but what separated Socrates was his honesty: he knew nothing and admitted it. Naturally, the established powers and polite society didn't find this to their…

> Naturally, the established powers and polite society didn't find this to their liking. We all know how his story ended. Socrates was sentenced to death not for exposing how little everyone else knew. The esteemed philosopher was sentenced to death because he was deliberately annoying people - like a fly - with badgering questions that would force the questionee into a corner. Today we call this method of exposing c…

And why do you think people found this so annoying?

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#225

Post by Kaibeezy » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 1:18 PM UTC

crispyambulance wrote: post #104

Kaibeezy wrote: post #52

Seth Godin has a whole schtick on the high value of what he calls “intentional serial incompetence”. Basically, if you’re unwilling to be seen as incompetent, you can’t deal with change. Good summary here - https://www.fastcompany.com/38442/change-agent-issue-31 My own experience has been that if you’re pretty sure you’re one of the smartest people in the room, you have an obligation to ask the “stupid” questions, be…

> ...you have an obligation to ask the “stupid” questions... I really agree with that but it's all about being willing to take a risk. Many settings, especially in corporate environments, are intrinsically hostile to inquiry. These are places where meetings are run with semi-parliamentary rules-- just pro-forma affairs to mark project transitions. In such situations, it may be that the others know better than you do…

Yeah, well, corporate. If you’re in that situation, you have some self-splaining to do. ;)

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#226

Post by bena » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 1:18 PM UTC

dusted wrote: post #50

When I was younger, I often met people who seemed kind of dim to me, at first, and later found the majority of them to be orders of magnitude brighter than me. It was not hard to connect the dots, the reason they were so much brighter was (in part) exactly because of what made them initially seem dim.. They asked questions, honestly. Not the showoff kind of question you ask to show how much you know, but real, honest…

You've mistaken "wanting to be right" with wanting to "be correct".

I've never inferred stupidity or lack of intelligence with asking questions. The only thing I've inferred was lack of knowledge. And the best way to get knowledge is to ask. People who ask want to know. They want the information to get to correct.

People who don't ask questions eventually make assumptions that are wrong. Because they're so wrapped up in "looking smart" and they think being "smart" means having all the knowledge. They "want to be right" so they don't look information because looking would expose they don't already have it.

Smart people seek information so they can apply it. Genuinely intelligent people just have faster processors.

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#227

Post by motohagiography » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 1:20 PM UTC

The author's approach is that he has a reason for his behaviour that others don't understand, and he says they treat him as "stupid," which may not be accurate. The pop culture trope about "genius and insanity," resembling each other has always been presented as mysterious, but the link is that both people are indexed on things others can't see. The difference is that one person is persuasive and manages to cohere, persist, and realize ideas from those things others can't see, and the other person fails for a variety of reasons related to just being high functioning nuts.

The examples the author gives are more about being indexed on what others can't see than him being ignorant - but "stupid" is an interesting one because that means something else. If you separate intelligence and smart as being a capactity for abstraction and clarity vs. being able to get or achieve the things you want, one person can easily be both hyperintelligent and completely un-smart. Nerd is the cliche for that. The low cunning of a middle manager can produce outcomes that are very smart, without much talent for complexity, discovery, truth, or consideration, which is reflected in other archetypes.

I often admit I'm not particularly smart, and that mostly I'm stupid in such unexpected ways that people conclude I must know something they don't, because nobody with a rudimentary apprehension of reality would attempt the things I have. Beware an idiot with the element of surprise. This is to say, I look stupid every day, and it is often painful and has a permanent record, but I see it more like lifting weights, where given the options, using your body to shift hundreds of pounds without leverage is definitely short term stupid, but the effects of persisting are long term smart.

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#228

Post by xyzelement » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 1:20 PM UTC

I used to work at a place where we recognized each other for the ability to "stick our hand in the fan."

Meaning, we know that some things cannot be understood until they are tried, and trying such things often leads to failure (though there's an art to keep the failure small and learn fast.)

So we'd basically recognize and reward people for embracing that reality, for the ability to say "yup I am gonna probably do this wrong the first time but that's gonna lead to progress"

Inverse of that is fear of failure - inability to do something unless you are certain you're capable of securing a successful outcome. Basically that means you only do things you already know how to do.

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#229

Post by lugged » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 1:21 PM UTC

HeckFeck wrote: post #157

dotancohen wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Naturally, the established powers and polite society didn't find this to their liking. We all know how his story ended. Socrates was sentenced to death not for exposing how little everyone else knew. The esteemed philosopher was sentenced to death because he was deliberately annoying people - like a fly - with badgering questions that would force the questionee into a corner. Today we call this method of exposing c…

Ah, didn't expect the venerable Meletus to show up in the conversation today. How's the weather in Athens? > sentenced to death because he was deliberately annoying people I see you're still certain of Socrates' motives. When you claimed he was 'corrupting the minds of the youth' and 'denying the gods of the city' you were simply repeating the charges laid at any philosopher who threatens the powers that be. If anyon…

Facts don't care about your feelings and the truth doesn't hurt points of view that are legitimate.

Re: Willingness to look stupid

#230

Post by lugged » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 1:21 PM UTC

darkerside wrote: post #224

dotancohen wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Naturally, the established powers and polite society didn't find this to their liking. We all know how his story ended. Socrates was sentenced to death not for exposing how little everyone else knew. The esteemed philosopher was sentenced to death because he was deliberately annoying people - like a fly - with badgering questions that would force the questionee into a corner. Today we call this method of exposing c…

And why do you think people found this so annoying?

*find

And I dunno, ask my wife.