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Alibaba Open Source XuanTie RISC-V Cores, Introduces In-House Armv9 Server Chip

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Re: Alibaba Open Source XuanTie RISC-V Cores, Introduces In-House Armv9 Server Chip

#71

Post by easygenes »

forgotmyoldname wrote: post #42
easygenes wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Macs are still a relatively small (but profitable) chunk of the computing world. The ground Intel has lost in desktop and mobile is more than made up for by their utter dominance in server. Intel also has a lot of plays that should bear fruit in holding or retaking ground on consumer compute in the next few years: 1) Arc GPUs. Looks like they will be seriously disruptive. 2) Hedging their process node bets by using T…

Macs are a small market, but Apple definitely sets trends. Once they adopt a technology, people "know" it works and it's safe to switch. If servers can run on cheap ARM hardware that uses less electricity and runs far cooler without much of a performance difference, that's a massive improvement. Electricity savings would more than justify a switch. Apple has shown that it's possible at the desktop/laptop level. Now t…

For most purposes, electricity is almost a rounding error in datacenter asset management concerns. Server compute is expensive. It is all about performance. ARM is just starting to get competitive in that ballpark. So we will see.

All of these ARM server chips are going to be very low on the pecking order for TSMC fab time, so they won't have the edge that Apple had by buying up the first slot on the latest manufacturing node. Even being a process node ahead, M1 only just squeaks by with comparable single threaded performance to Zen 3 cores, so ARM still has some catching up to do in the performance realm.

Re: Alibaba Open Source XuanTie RISC-V Cores, Introduces In-House Armv9 Server Chip

#72

Post by tsechin »

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #51
maxpert wrote: post #5

Intel is gonna be in deep trouble in couple of years. They are the PowerPC of modern era. IDK what held them back from reimagining the architecture for less power hungry processors and tooling. With Mac mainstream switching to ARM and Microsoft doing something similar, I think within next 5 - 10 years ARM is gonna take over Intel architecture in general.

> IDK what held them back from reimagining the architecture They'd been successful for decades, were raking in cash, and remembered the last time they tried something new AKA Itanium AKA the itanic AKA the most mocked architecture of all time. It's a failing, but I can totally understand how they got there.

Classic innovator's dilemma. They're retreating up-market.

Re: Alibaba Open Source XuanTie RISC-V Cores, Introduces In-House Armv9 Server Chip

#73

Post by bildung »

rhn_mk1 wrote: post #59
brucehoult wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you have the complete verilog source code for the CPU core it's pretty hard to hide anything. Following the source code for the C910 core upload 24 hours ago, Olof Kindgren is live-tweeting getting it going in an FPGA using the existing FuseSoC framework. He made significant progress in the first session before going to bed. It would not surprise me if it's working in the next 24 hours.

> When you have the complete verilog source code for the CPU core That's a big "when". The road from an ISA to a core is long, and unless the core is copylefted (this isn't), then you aren't going to get the source code for something someone else manufactured either.

Copyleft won't help you there either if the license issuer is also the producer of the physical chip: Licenses are regulating what third parties can do with the source, they don't restrict the issuer.

Re: Alibaba Open Source XuanTie RISC-V Cores, Introduces In-House Armv9 Server Chip

#74

Post by qwertox »

forgotmyoldname wrote: post #42
easygenes wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Macs are still a relatively small (but profitable) chunk of the computing world. The ground Intel has lost in desktop and mobile is more than made up for by their utter dominance in server. Intel also has a lot of plays that should bear fruit in holding or retaking ground on consumer compute in the next few years: 1) Arc GPUs. Looks like they will be seriously disruptive. 2) Hedging their process node bets by using T…

Macs are a small market, but Apple definitely sets trends. Once they adopt a technology, people "know" it works and it's safe to switch. If servers can run on cheap ARM hardware that uses less electricity and runs far cooler without much of a performance difference, that's a massive improvement. Electricity savings would more than justify a switch. Apple has shown that it's possible at the desktop/laptop level. Now t…

It basically says that the "intel inside"-logo on laptops has become meaningless.

Re: Alibaba Open Source XuanTie RISC-V Cores, Introduces In-House Armv9 Server Chip

#75

Post by hencoappel »

easygenes wrote: post #71
forgotmyoldname wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Macs are a small market, but Apple definitely sets trends. Once they adopt a technology, people "know" it works and it's safe to switch. If servers can run on cheap ARM hardware that uses less electricity and runs far cooler without much of a performance difference, that's a massive improvement. Electricity savings would more than justify a switch. Apple has shown that it's possible at the desktop/laptop level. Now t…

For most purposes, electricity is almost a rounding error in datacenter asset management concerns. Server compute is expensive. It is all about performance. ARM is just starting to get competitive in that ballpark. So we will see. All of these ARM server chips are going to be very low on the pecking order for TSMC fab time, so they won't have the edge that Apple had by buying up the first slot on the latest manufactu…

As far as I'm aware, efficiency is key for datacenters. It can lower direct electricity costs, but also the cost of cooling. I've always been under the impression that the cost of running is much more than the cost of the hardware which is why they are willing to pay so much for the best/most efficient hardware?

Re: Alibaba Open Source XuanTie RISC-V Cores, Introduces In-House Armv9 Server Chip

#76

Post by tdrdt »

easygenes wrote: post #71
forgotmyoldname wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Macs are a small market, but Apple definitely sets trends. Once they adopt a technology, people "know" it works and it's safe to switch. If servers can run on cheap ARM hardware that uses less electricity and runs far cooler without much of a performance difference, that's a massive improvement. Electricity savings would more than justify a switch. Apple has shown that it's possible at the desktop/laptop level. Now t…

For most purposes, electricity is almost a rounding error in datacenter asset management concerns. Server compute is expensive. It is all about performance. ARM is just starting to get competitive in that ballpark. So we will see. All of these ARM server chips are going to be very low on the pecking order for TSMC fab time, so they won't have the edge that Apple had by buying up the first slot on the latest manufactu…

"For most purposes, electricity is almost a rounding error in datacenter asset management concerns."

I don't think this is true. It is not only power consumption but also power backup. If you can use smaller diesel engines and smaller battery packs this will lower the cost.

And why do you think datacenters have been raising temperatures? It saves a ton of money: https://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2008/10/14/goog... HP estimated they saved 8 million. That is not a rounding error.

A server that uses less power will also generate less heat.

I have to admit it is years ago I worked for a company owning datacenters but at that time the highest costs were always: power and connectivity.

Re: Alibaba Open Source XuanTie RISC-V Cores, Introduces In-House Armv9 Server Chip

#77

Post by Iolaum »

rjzzleep wrote: post #25
easygenes wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Macs are still a relatively small (but profitable) chunk of the computing world. The ground Intel has lost in desktop and mobile is more than made up for by their utter dominance in server. Intel also has a lot of plays that should bear fruit in holding or retaking ground on consumer compute in the next few years: 1) Arc GPUs. Looks like they will be seriously disruptive. 2) Hedging their process node bets by using T…

From what I'm seeing, I think assuming that RISC-V CPUs being blob free and open, just because the ISA is open is illusory at best and wilfully lying at worst.

It still removes a serious obstacle to getting a blob free cpu where user can have control over what it does. The ISA is no more a "magic sauce" to be protected and patented and therefore hidden behind closed source.

Re: Alibaba Open Source XuanTie RISC-V Cores, Introduces In-House Armv9 Server Chip

#78

Post by tdrdt »

forgotmyoldname wrote: post #42
easygenes wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Macs are still a relatively small (but profitable) chunk of the computing world. The ground Intel has lost in desktop and mobile is more than made up for by their utter dominance in server. Intel also has a lot of plays that should bear fruit in holding or retaking ground on consumer compute in the next few years: 1) Arc GPUs. Looks like they will be seriously disruptive. 2) Hedging their process node bets by using T…

Macs are a small market, but Apple definitely sets trends. Once they adopt a technology, people "know" it works and it's safe to switch. If servers can run on cheap ARM hardware that uses less electricity and runs far cooler without much of a performance difference, that's a massive improvement. Electricity savings would more than justify a switch. Apple has shown that it's possible at the desktop/laptop level. Now t…

You are giving too much praise to Apple. They never set trends in the datacenter world.

Arm servers have been sold for some years now. AWS, Oracle and others already made the switch. And the fastest super computer (Fugaku, Japan) uses ARM.

Re: Alibaba Open Source XuanTie RISC-V Cores, Introduces In-House Armv9 Server Chip

#79

Post by d33 »

As a person learning Chinese, I find it super frustrating that Chinese brand names are only mentioned in Pinyin, and to make it worse, without tones. With tones, it would have been xuántiě, which makes it possible to properly pronounce without extra context. In Chinese characters it's 玄铁 in simplified and 玄鐵 in traditional script. The meaning is "reddish-black iron". I'm curious if it should be taken literally or if it's a cultural reference of some sort.

Re: Alibaba Open Source XuanTie RISC-V Cores, Introduces In-House Armv9 Server Chip

#80

Post by caskstrength »

easygenes wrote: post #21
maxpert wrote: post #5

Intel is gonna be in deep trouble in couple of years. They are the PowerPC of modern era. IDK what held them back from reimagining the architecture for less power hungry processors and tooling. With Mac mainstream switching to ARM and Microsoft doing something similar, I think within next 5 - 10 years ARM is gonna take over Intel architecture in general.

Macs are still a relatively small (but profitable) chunk of the computing world. The ground Intel has lost in desktop and mobile is more than made up for by their utter dominance in server. Intel also has a lot of plays that should bear fruit in holding or retaking ground on consumer compute in the next few years: 1) Arc GPUs. Looks like they will be seriously disruptive. 2) Hedging their process node bets by using T…

I agree with your assessment in general, but why do think Arc GPUs will be "seriously disruptive"? If anything, they seem to be too late to the party.
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