Facebook settles federal lawsuit over allegations it favored foreign applicants • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook settles federal lawsuit over allegations it favored foreign applicants

#91

Post by giobox » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 1:16 AM UTC

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #88

giobox wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s almost entirely about PERM interviews conducted by Facebook for their H-1B holders looking to adjust status, yes. My main issue is with your earlier statement that this has nothing to do with the H-1B, when it almost exclusively concerns H-1B visa holders at Facebook in practice.

It would equivalently apply to petitions for immigrant visas where applicants would be outside the U.S. and apply via consular processing. Or for employees on intracompany transferee L-1 visas. The PERM process is specifically a prerequisite to an I-140 petition for immigrant visa. Anything assertion that Facebook was "defrauding the H-1B program" is completely spurious.

While you are of course entitled to your view, I would respectfully disagree. In practice the _vast_ majority of I-140s filed by Facebook are for their H-1B holders. To pretend their PERM recruitment process and their use of the H-1B is somehow totally unlinked is disingenuous at best.

Re: Facebook settles federal lawsuit over allegations it favored foreign applicants

#92

Post by ahahahahah » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 1:20 AM UTC

AlwaysRock wrote: post #10

The fine is like 8 E7 salaries. Insane how little money that is for facebook. The much greater impact would have been delaying greencard processing for longer. They probably laughed when they found out that is all the fine would be.

It's likely the case that everyone involved knew that facebook would win in court as they were following both the intent and the letter of the law (which badly needs updating). Facebook however was paying a high cost for as long as the suit was ongoing (aiui, all FB PERM processing was stalled until this was resolved), and the government was happy to get a settlement where FB paid anything.

Re: Facebook settles federal lawsuit over allegations it favored foreign applicants

#93

Post by pm90 » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 1:28 AM UTC

lhorie wrote: post #72

So if I'm reading this right, this seems to be about PERM applications. For context, PERM certification is a required step in the green card application, where a company sponsoring a green card applicant must demonstrate that they posted a job ad for the candidate's position somewhere conspicuous for a sufficient amount of time and that they were not able to find a qualified American applicant. Where this gets iffy i…

No it’s not. Like many other US laws, this one is pretty archaic. We tend to think that laws should be reasonable. Most often than not some of these weird conditions are just ways to placate members of some party and get their votes. So a lot of laws don’t really make much sense in practice, and the US Congress is completely dysfunctional due to structural reasons and severe partisanship so they’re not updating the laws.

Re: Facebook settles federal lawsuit over allegations it favored foreign applicants

#94

Post by pm90 » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 1:30 AM UTC

huy-nguyen wrote: post #34

fay59 wrote: post #32

For context, a worker on an H1-B can be in the US for a total 6 years. Within that time frame, their employer can sponsor them for a green card, which allows them to stay indefinitely and keep the job. However, through the lens of the government, what actually happens in this transition is that the H1-B worker’s job disappears and a new job appears. The H1-B employee must apply to this job and compete fairly with Ame…

You're right. What Facebook is accused of is not putting enough effort into recruiting US workers to show that there's no qualified US worker for the Green Card "positions" that H1B workers have to "apply" to.

I don’t think any company does. It’s at best a formality, every company I’ve worked at recognizes it as such.

Re: Facebook settles federal lawsuit over allegations it favored foreign applicants

#95

Post by pm90 » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 1:31 AM UTC

silexia wrote: post #22

How would one go about collecting money from being denied employment at Facebook in favor of an H1B applicant?

Most of the money will go to the lawyers.

Re: Facebook settles federal lawsuit over allegations it favored foreign applicants

#96

Post by tmm84 » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 2:24 AM UTC

jaywalk wrote: post #3

Up to $14.25 million in fines and restitution for defrauding the H-1B program and screwing over US citizens. Facebook won't even blink an eye at that amount. How about barring them from the H-1B program for 5 years? I think that would be a great start.

I agree with this. Facebook made money hiring non-American workers and now they are being fined (I would highly doubt the money made/saved by hiring immigrant workers was invested to offset any "costs"). So, the money they didn't spend/invest on American on workers goes to the US government and not a penny goes towards actually fixing the situation (educating motivated Americans to be good enough to do said jobs for $X). If educating and hiring Americans to work for American companies was a financial gain they would have done it but instead hiring Americans that had to be educated/trained is seen as a financial liability (What if they don't work out? What if they leave for another company? Etc.). However, in the case of an immigrant the simple fact they can't just switch jobs, you'll make due with $X a month and they have to make things work or it's back to wherever you are from while at the same time they are 100% over qualified is one heck of a financial leverage that any company would take. That's just the simple facts when you have loads of money you want more of it and to make that happen you'll do things like this that ensure more of it flows your way.

Re: Facebook settles federal lawsuit over allegations it favored foreign applicants

#97

Post by throwfaangus » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 3:30 AM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #18

mc32 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They should revoke the right of any employer who egregiously violates the program like this. Then have them build programs to get under served communities (urban and rural) to get up to speed; grade them on effectiveness and fine them if ineffective.

Well, you're assuming that they actually want the law enforced in this case and aren't just lightly slapping wrists for appearance's sake.

I'd imagine that the change of guard in the White House might have had something to do with it as well. Each administration had drastically different views on immigration policy.

Re: Facebook settles federal lawsuit over allegations it favored foreign applicants

#98

Post by lostmsu » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 5:15 AM UTC

stadium wrote: post #90

lostmsu wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll take it as no data then.

Do you want data on how diversity is beneficial to the bottom line? Or how paid referrals can contribute to homogenized employee demographics and less diversity? If you are truly curious and want to have a meaningful conversation I'm all for that. Otherwise there is plenty of material out there for you to google/research yourself.

The first one. I have no doubt paid referrals reduce diversity in nationalities. Your claim was that lack of diversity has a cost to the company. What is the cost?

Re: Facebook settles federal lawsuit over allegations it favored foreign applicants

#99

Post by Dalrymple » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 6:43 AM UTC

silexia wrote: post #22

How would one go about collecting money from being denied employment at Facebook in favor of an H1B applicant?

The official settlement memo says that key information is all in Attachment A. However, Attachment A was not attached, and as far as I can tell, is nowhere to be found. If anyone should find Attachment A, please inform us of its location.

Re: Facebook settles federal lawsuit over allegations it favored foreign applicants

#100

Post by Dalrymple » Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 6:45 AM UTC

sriram_sun wrote: post #31

silexia wrote: post #22

How would one go about collecting money from being denied employment at Facebook in favor of an H1B applicant?

The larger question is how would you collect money from any settlement? The same rules apply.

The official settlement memo says that key information is all in Attachment A. However, Attachment A was not attached, and as far as I can tell, is nowhere to be found. If anyone should find Attachment A, please inform us of its location.