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Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021

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Re: Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021

#181

Post by InitialLastName »

kibwen wrote: post #83
jnwatson wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Between “discovery” and permanent settlement of the continental US, an estimated 55 million Native Americans died of disease. [1] The colonization of North America would have gone quite differently with that many folks to contend with. 1. https://www.businessinsider.com/climate-changed-after-europe...

In particular we can imagine it might look more similar to how China, India, Africa, etc. turned out, with subjugated local populations serving under foreign imperial governors. The eventual collapse of the empire might then result in most of the Americas being populated by ethnically Native American states.

In a lot of ways, though, the European subjugation of the Americas was the "tutorial mode" for European subjugation of Asia and Africa. Among other things, note that the business end of European colonization of subsaharan Africa and South and East Asia started ~a century after the colonization of the Americas (thanks to proximity, the Middle East and North Africa were much more tightly coupled to European history, and colonization played out differently there). The scramble for Africa and the opening of Japan didn't happen until the mid-late 19th century!

Re: Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021

#182

Post by singularity2001 »

chestertn wrote: post #41

There are plenty of valid claims that many other civilizations contacted America: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_trans-oceanic_co... But it is meaningless since they did not write about it nor they stablished commerce. The fact is that before 1492, most civilizations in Africa/Asia/Europe did not know that America existed and that other humans lived there. After 1492, that changed forever.

I find it highly likely that crucial bronze age inventions like smelting, Eridu/Elamite 'pyramids' and writing were introduced to America in one way trips between 4000 and 0BC, however until we find artifacts or mummy DNA it's pure speculation.

Re: Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021

#183

Post by jcranmer »

barbacoa wrote: post #161
ProjectArcturis wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Cahokia region did, certainly, but that would have been a minor blip in the total North American population, especially compared to the ~90% loss that happened following European arrival.

The population decline of the Mayans happened around the same time. This decline was steep enough to be called a collapse. There has been much discussion as to the cause.

Yeah, no. The Classic Maya collapse dates to around 900, which is before Cahokia even gets going.

Re: Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021

#184

Post by runarberg »

BurningFrog wrote: post #82
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #28

An interesting counter-factual that comes to mind - if the Norse Greenlanders had brought smallpox or other diseases with them, then Native Americans would have had 500 years to recover (and keep immunity?) - The conquistadors would have faced millions of not-dying-natives. A much different world would have resulted.

That's really interesting! Of course, if the native population died off around them, the Vikings would probably have expanded their settlements and perhaps ruled North America instead.

I doubt it. The distances are simply too large to maintain a supply lines needed for a self sufficient colonies to thrive. The Norse needed the natives both to trade with and to learn from if they were to settle these lands, they couldn’t do it on their own.

Now you might think of Iceland and Norse Greenland as a counter example. But Norse Greenland never really thrived, and was eventually abandoned. Iceland however thrived, but it is so much closer to Norway about 7 days at see with the potential to stop at the Faeroe Islands.

The voyage between Greenland and Iceland is similar (only a bit longer + sailing up the west coast of Greenland). And finally you need another week or two to cross the Labrador sea from Greenland. However that route is much harder in the winter then between Iceland and Norway, and Greenland is not nearly as populated as Iceland or Norway and don’t generate enough surplus food which they can supply to a potential colonies on the North American mainland.

So the logistics of supplying a colony in North America without help from the people already living there must include a summertime only supply line from Iceland with enough supplies to last the whole year. Where each voyage from Iceland is going take maybe a month, maybe more, just one way. These ships are still pretty small and not a lot of room for cargo, so you’ll need a few of them. I’m not sure the economy on Iceland could have afforded such an expensive endeavor.

Re: Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021

#185

Post by iammisc »

wnscooke wrote: post #92
bingohbangoh wrote: post #33

I've never understood the significance of this. The vikings were in North America for a few years and then went back to Europe. They brought back (almost?) nothing, left a few scattered settlements, and completely forgot about it. So what.

There are some who think that if the First Nations weren’t “the first”, that diminishes modern day claims and grievances, making it easier for modern day Canada and the USA to ignore legitimate claims, and treat us as they’ve always wanted to treat us. So, this sort of research is important for many.

It doesn't matter if they were first, or if they themselves slaughtered whomever lived here before... being 'first' to be somewhere doesn't give you automatic rights over something. That is not how human civilization has ever worked.

Re: Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021

#187

Post by beaner »

jcranmer wrote: post #183
barbacoa wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The population decline of the Mayans happened around the same time. This decline was steep enough to be called a collapse. There has been much discussion as to the cause.

Yeah, no. The Classic Maya collapse dates to around 900, which is before Cahokia even gets going.

I think by "around the same time" he probably just means "plus or minus a few hundred years, before the Europeans". Point being that native collapse happened at large scale in multiple areas prior to European settling.

Re: Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021

#188

Post by 29athrowaway »

sillyquiet wrote: post #111
29athrowaway wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the time, Europeans fought one tribe at a time, rather than a large alliance of Native Americans. Then, in many cases, they made natives fight each other, and they recruited "auxiliary indians". The siege of Tenochtitlan involved 200,000 Tlaxcalans fighting on the European side. In other cases, such as the Battle of Cajamarca, they used their horse + armor advantage to kidnap the leader and ask everyone else…

"They made" natives fight each other is a weird way of putting it. Warring tribes were more than happy to use the Europeans against their enemies. And many of those enmities long predated the arrival of Europeans.

Yes, that characterization is a bit more accurate.

Re: Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021

#189

Post by hapticmonkey »

chestertn wrote: post #41

There are plenty of valid claims that many other civilizations contacted America: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_trans-oceanic_co... But it is meaningless since they did not write about it nor they stablished commerce. The fact is that before 1492, most civilizations in Africa/Asia/Europe did not know that America existed and that other humans lived there. After 1492, that changed forever.

That's like saying The Apollo moon missions were meaningless because they failed to set up commercial hub on the moon.

Re: Evidence for European presence in the Americas in AD 1021

#190

Post by runarberg »

chestertn wrote: post #41

There are plenty of valid claims that many other civilizations contacted America: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_trans-oceanic_co... But it is meaningless since they did not write about it nor they stablished commerce. The fact is that before 1492, most civilizations in Africa/Asia/Europe did not know that America existed and that other humans lived there. After 1492, that changed forever.

> But it is meaningless since they did not write about it

The story of Leifur Eiríksson lived in the oral tradition and was eventually written down in Grænlendinga Saga around 250 years later (which is still another 250 years before Columbus).

I bet that possible Polynesian contact would have lived in the oral tradition in a similar manner. Though way more time passed until the stories Polynesian were written down so I would expect them to be a bit more fantastical with the added time.

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