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Facebook settles federal lawsuit over allegations it favored foreign applicants

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Re: Facebook settles federal lawsuit over allegations it favored foreign applicants

#71
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FAANGs are always hiring. Any US citizen, who's qualified, can get a job there at any point in time.

"who's qualified" I suspect the qualifications are different depending on your citizenship.

I've been recruited by different FAANGs, and was also actively recruiting people at them. Your suspicions are wrong.

Bar is the same (of course, there will some bias from specific people, but those are one-offs). Even more - hiring H1Bs is harder than hiring a citizen and it's more costly to the company (immigration sucks). If they could, they wouldn't hire H1Bs.

Equation is different at sweatshops, where you don't hire specific people, that meet specific bars you have. They have no bars - they just need code/ops/qa monkeys. They apply for as many visas as you can, and get whoever they can get as a result. As long as they got enough people, they're happy.

Re: Facebook settles federal lawsuit over allegations it favored foreign applicants

#72
So if I'm reading this right, this seems to be about PERM applications.

For context, PERM certification is a required step in the green card application, where a company sponsoring a green card applicant must demonstrate that they posted a job ad for the candidate's position somewhere conspicuous for a sufficient amount of time and that they were not able to find a qualified American applicant.

Where this gets iffy is that because this is part of a green card sponsorship, this is always an advertisement for a position that is already filled by the H1-B holder, who typically has already been at working in that capacity for at least a year, and who literally is only engaging in this process because they intend to immigrate and become a US permanent resident.

There's literally zero incentive for any company to boot an already productive H1-B holder in favor of some random new hire just because of their nationality. Typically, the way this is justified is that the hypothetical new hire must demonstrate the ability to be as productive as the H1-B holder, including having context on the project. Otherwise, it would just cost the company time and money to fire the employed person and hire/onboard the new one for no benefit to the company whatsoever. It would indeed be doubly bad from a reputation perspective since then foreign talent would definitely avoid applying to a company that just boots people and leaves them out in the cold with an invalid residency status forcing them to move back to their home country in a month's window. The justification that companies can't find the talent in the country boils down to that: where were these so called qualified american candidates a year prior to the PERM application? IF they existed then, the company would certainly have preferred to hire them because H1-B/PERM/green card sponsorship actually costs quite a bit of money to the company.

Now, I may be biased, since I'm a green card holder myself, but the thing with PERM is that the H1-B engagement is a mutual investment which started at least a year prior to PERM coming into the picture in the first place (it's an investment by the company, in terms of finding and onboarding a new person and getting them to be productive, as well as by the employee, who works to build context and become necessary to the company). Is it "fair" that one person ought to have the right to just come in after the fact and enjoy the fruits of other people's investments just because of their nationality, especially considering that this entails a losing party who for all intents and purposes was already a productive member of American society working towards acquiring permanent residency status?

Re: Facebook settles federal lawsuit over allegations it favored foreign applicants

#73
post #57
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would challenge the use of word "cost" here, unless you have corroborating data.

First google result for "organizational cost of low diversity": https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/accentu...

That link is blatant propaganda.

>number of inclusion topics, including the ability to fail without fear, the ability to report harassment, and the flexibility to work from home.

Deliberately conflating "diversity and inclusion" with problems that have nothing to actually do with with gender/race.

>Analysts found that companies where many employees felt engaged were more likely to demonstrate higher profit growth. Closing the gap by 50%, or making employees feel more included, pointed to a 33% increase in global profit growth for businesses.

And then pulling numbers out of their asses based on a correlation between "employee engagement" and profit growth.

This is what happens when politics suppress open discussion; research becomes one-sided and our policies myopically tread down a narrow path to dysfunction.

The idea that skin color, gender, and/or sexuality have any bearing on the performance of a team is, ironically blatantly racist/sexist. I don't understand how people don't collapse under the weight of such a cognitive dissonance.

Re: Facebook settles federal lawsuit over allegations it favored foreign applicants

#74
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"who's qualified" I suspect the qualifications are different depending on your citizenship.

I've been recruited by different FAANGs, and was also actively recruiting people at them. Your suspicions are wrong. Bar is the same (of course, there will some bias from specific people, but those are one-offs). Even more - hiring H1Bs is harder than hiring a citizen and it's more costly to the company (immigration sucks). If they could, they wouldn't hire H1Bs. Equation is different at sweatshops, where you don't h…

You are over simplifying a bit. Yes it may cost more to hire a H1B due to legal costs but only a small amount more at companies of this size. They have teams of people who handle that.

H1B workers are often paid less that citizens. In the long run it is probably cheaper to hire H1B workers even after the legal costs.

Re: Facebook settles federal lawsuit over allegations it favored foreign applicants

#75
post #22

How would one go about collecting money from being denied employment at Facebook in favor of an H1B applicant?

I'd guess you'd have to start by figuring out if the role you applied for went to a H1B applicant, and then hire a lawyer to see if a lawsuit would be viable.

I wonder if you could make a business out of helping qualified US residents apply to these fake job postings and suing the companies when they get turned down..

Re: Facebook settles federal lawsuit over allegations it favored foreign applicants

#76
post #57
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would challenge the use of word "cost" here, unless you have corroborating data.

First google result for "organizational cost of low diversity": https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/accentu...

I am not sure why you equate diversity with inclusion. It's hard to see why members of a team 100% consisting of folks from Laos would feel less "included" in the work/company life than a team of 80% folks from Laos and 20% from Peru.

Re: Facebook settles federal lawsuit over allegations it favored foreign applicants

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been recruited by different FAANGs, and was also actively recruiting people at them. Your suspicions are wrong. Bar is the same (of course, there will some bias from specific people, but those are one-offs). Even more - hiring H1Bs is harder than hiring a citizen and it's more costly to the company (immigration sucks). If they could, they wouldn't hire H1Bs. Equation is different at sweatshops, where you don't h…

You are over simplifying a bit. Yes it may cost more to hire a H1B due to legal costs but only a small amount more at companies of this size. They have teams of people who handle that. H1B workers are often paid less that citizens. In the long run it is probably cheaper to hire H1B workers even after the legal costs.

> H1B workers are often paid less that citizens

At sweatshops. Not at FAANGs.

Re: Facebook settles federal lawsuit over allegations it favored foreign applicants

#78
post #5

I am supportive of visas for highly skilled workers and immigration in general. However I see many H1-Bs being hired that are frankly overqualified for the work they are end up doing (especially stuff like exploratory QA or entry level operations tasks). I'm not sure we need to import people to do this work. I think the tech industry in the US should be looking at American non-college graduates to do this kind of wor…

> especially people from families without a history of college degrees. No adult should ever be judged by the "sins of their fathers" in any capacity. Family history should only be a consideration when it's medical history.

That's one way to twist "lifting people out of generational poverty", but OK.

Fine. Let's just give preference to people who didn't have the privilege of having a college-educated adult as their legal guardian or personal responsible for their upbringing.

Does it make it better for you?

Re: Facebook settles federal lawsuit over allegations it favored foreign applicants

#79
post #16
post #5

I am supportive of visas for highly skilled workers and immigration in general. However I see many H1-Bs being hired that are frankly overqualified for the work they are end up doing (especially stuff like exploratory QA or entry level operations tasks). I'm not sure we need to import people to do this work. I think the tech industry in the US should be looking at American non-college graduates to do this kind of wor…

I'm not sure it's a good idea to take someone's family history into account when determining whether or not they're qualified to do a certain job. Why should the fact that someone's grandfather went to college hurt them in getting one of these jobs for "people from families without a history of college degrees"? Even if you think this is good for purposes of equity or whatever, how far back do you go? My maternal gra…

This is why most attempts to wrong historical injustices (umbrella term "reparations") are morally questionable.

Frankly, I think they are very bad, since they cannot be applied fairly and end up leading to more resentment and tension among social groups.

Re: Facebook settles federal lawsuit over allegations it favored foreign applicants

#80
post #76
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First google result for "organizational cost of low diversity": https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/accentu...

I am not sure why you equate diversity with inclusion. It's hard to see why members of a team 100% consisting of folks from Laos would feel less "included" in the work/company life than a team of 80% folks from Laos and 20% from Peru.

It's generally accepted now that more diversity has multiple business benefits, from IC level up to board of directors. And paid referrals tend to attract similar demographics and backgrounds. I only have anecdotal data.

I honestly didn't read the article, Google can give you more info/data than I can. I vaguely recall HBR has had some good articles on it the last couple of years.

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