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Developer open-sources 200+ hr project after client refuses to pay

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Re: Developer open-sources 200+ hr project after client refuses to pay

#81

Post by tptacek »

pilif wrote: post #77
tptacek wrote: post #61

He should have AGPL3'd this code, and put a standing offer for a royalty-free unencumbered free license to anyone who contacts him directly. The net result would have been the same, but his deadbeat client wouldn't get the code for free.

... because the AGPL would for sure stop them from using the code without giving anything back considering that they didn't even pay the author for his contract work.

If the deadbeat client was using his work, he had recourse. It might take forever to chase his money down, but it's much easier to shut a site down.

By releasing the code under a permissive license, he gave up that recourse. His client's right to use the code is now a grey area. Technically, he has the same recourse in court as he did before; contracts. But he's severed the connection between that and the deployment of his code.

I'm not expressing nerdly outrage at how he did it. I'm simply suggesting a tactical refinement for the next person who decides to dump dox to Github when a client doesn't pay.

Re: Developer open-sources 200+ hr project after client refuses to pay

#82

Post by tptacek »

idlewords wrote: post #80
tptacek wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're a small company relative to the kinds of companies who usually contract out dev or tech work, and we will pay something up front. Probably closer to 25% than 50%, but we wouldn't get mad if you asked 50%. I'm saying this as a data point for people just getting started who might be nervous about asking for payment up front. If we'll do it, I'm sure many other people will too. It's a reasonable request. On the ot…

An additional wrinkle is that oftentimes it can take a while to set up the mechanics of payment with a first-time client. So even if there is goodwill on both sides and a willingness to pay an initial deposit, you might not see the money until you've done quite a lot of work. Since a lot of contract work is time-sensitive, waiting for payment to clear before starting work or handing over an initial milestone might no…

This is a great thing to keep in mind before any of you think of writing an outraged blog post when a client doesn't honor Net+30 on your first invoice cycle. Clients usually don't.

Re: Developer open-sources 200+ hr project after client refuses to pay

#83

Post by jeffreymcmanus »

mattgreenrocks wrote: post #44
byoung2 wrote: post #2

After spending 200+ hours developing the system, not a dime has been seen or given Freelancers should always try to get at least a deposit upfront. When I was freelancing, I would get 100% upfront for projects under $500, 50% upfront for projects between $500 and $2000. For projects over $2000, I would get 25% upfront, and then set milestones with payments attached. I had a $7500 project once where the guy made the f…

Do you run into any pushback from potential clients when you tell them this?

We've turned away work from clients who can't deal with our requirement to get at least a token retainer up front. It becomes easier and easier to say no to these clients (even during lean times). After having done this for years, you think back to all the times when something goes wrong on the project and the client uses your invoice as leverage to do something stupid. Having a retainer means that payment of your invoices is not optional for them.

Re: Developer open-sources 200+ hr project after client refuses to pay

#84

Post by qeorge »

tptacek wrote: post #69
byoung2 wrote: post #2

After spending 200+ hours developing the system, not a dime has been seen or given Freelancers should always try to get at least a deposit upfront. When I was freelancing, I would get 100% upfront for projects under $500, 50% upfront for projects between $500 and $2000. For projects over $2000, I would get 25% upfront, and then set milestones with payments attached. I had a $7500 project once where the guy made the f…

We're a small company relative to the kinds of companies who usually contract out dev or tech work, and we will pay something up front. Probably closer to 25% than 50%, but we wouldn't get mad if you asked 50%. I'm saying this as a data point for people just getting started who might be nervous about asking for payment up front. If we'll do it, I'm sure many other people will too. It's a reasonable request. On the ot…

Just to add a +1, we're also totally OK with paying half upfront and half on delivery. Milestones are fine too if that's what vendors prefer, but I think 50/50 is easiest.

Once we've worked together, I'm happy to pay 100% upfront for anything On the other side, we usually ask for 50% from new clients, but will let it drop if there's a good contract in place and/or we've worked together a bit. Much more concerned with getting paid than cashflow.

Agree that big companies are never going to pay upfront, it will be net 30 at best, take it or leave it. But never do anything on net 30 without a purchase order (PO). It can take a while (months, damn the invoice date) but you'll get paid eventually.

Re: Developer open-sources 200+ hr project after client refuses to pay

#85

Post by qeorge »

idlewords wrote: post #80
tptacek wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're a small company relative to the kinds of companies who usually contract out dev or tech work, and we will pay something up front. Probably closer to 25% than 50%, but we wouldn't get mad if you asked 50%. I'm saying this as a data point for people just getting started who might be nervous about asking for payment up front. If we'll do it, I'm sure many other people will too. It's a reasonable request. On the ot…

An additional wrinkle is that oftentimes it can take a while to set up the mechanics of payment with a first-time client. So even if there is goodwill on both sides and a willingness to pay an initial deposit, you might not see the money until you've done quite a lot of work. Since a lot of contract work is time-sensitive, waiting for payment to clear before starting work or handing over an initial milestone might no…

Good point. Its hard to believe how long it can take to get set up as a vendor in QuickBooks/with accounting, (i.e., "get you in the system"). But once its taken care of (after you've been paid once) payments become more timely.

Re: Developer open-sources 200+ hr project after client refuses to pay

#86

Post by wtracy »

dkokelley wrote: post #6

Publicizing your work may be a fun way to 'get back' at an nonpaying client, but is it good for business? Would the professional thing to do be to simply drop work on this client and move on, or is any publicity good publicity for the coder? This is damaging to the client. Yes, they may have deserved it, but will future clients be discouraged by this behavior? Edit : To be clear, I'm not saying the coder was in the w…

Let's see, he did work for his client, never got paid, but handed over the work anyway. That seems like fantastic customer service right there. :-)

If diluting the client's competitive advantage is harmful to the client, then wouldn't anyone who releases a free product with equivalent functionality be responsible for hurting the client? Is in unethical to, say, release Apache because it dilutes Microsoft IIS? That doesn't seem like a reasonable standard.

Now, if the client provided proprietary information to the contractor (wireless toothbrushes are going to be big next year!) and that information was somehow baked into the now-open code (automatically flag all startups building wireless toothbrushes and move them to the top of the pile!) that would be less than ethical. I see no indication that this happened in this case.

Re: Developer open-sources 200+ hr project after client refuses to pay

#87

Post by wtracy »

tptacek wrote: post #60
kaffeinecoma wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tempting and amusing, perhaps, but it wouldn't exactly put him in a flattering light as a contractor. It might even scare off potential future clients. I think he's doing the right thing by releasing it as OSS. Hopefully he'll pick up some support hours if anyone actually ends up using it.

Why would excluding his deadbeat client from using the code put him in an unflattering light?

Right now he can claim the moral high ground, even if he is kind of being a jerk about it: "I didn't get paid, but I gave them access to their work anyway! (I just gave it to some other people, too.)"

If you added the proposed restriction, you demonstrate that you will take revenge on deadbeat clients by trying to give their competitors a leg up.

Re: Developer open-sources 200+ hr project after client refuses to pay

#88

Post by kaffeinecoma »

tptacek wrote: post #60
kaffeinecoma wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tempting and amusing, perhaps, but it wouldn't exactly put him in a flattering light as a contractor. It might even scare off potential future clients. I think he's doing the right thing by releasing it as OSS. Hopefully he'll pick up some support hours if anyone actually ends up using it.

Why would excluding his deadbeat client from using the code put him in an unflattering light?

Because it reeks a bit of airing dirty laundry, similar to the guy who added a "my client John Smith hasn't paid his bill, so I'm uploading this message to his website which I still control, in order to publicly shame him" which we saw a few months back.

Don't get me wrong- I think he's totally within his rights to (publicly) exclude him from the license. And as a developer who's been stiffed before, I sympathize. I think the restraint he's shown so far in that README is noble, and I hope he gets some good PR (and thus new clients) out of this.

Re: Developer open-sources 200+ hr project after client refuses to pay

#89

Post by apgwoz »

jtdowney wrote: post #78
tptacek wrote: post #61

He should have AGPL3'd this code, and put a standing offer for a royalty-free unencumbered free license to anyone who contacts him directly. The net result would have been the same, but his deadbeat client wouldn't get the code for free.

That is assuming the deadbeat client cares about following license restrictions.

Seems fairly enforceable and easy enough to prove. It just might take a while.

Re: Developer open-sources 200+ hr project after client refuses to pay

#90

Post by kaffeinecoma »

tptacek wrote: post #60
kaffeinecoma wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tempting and amusing, perhaps, but it wouldn't exactly put him in a flattering light as a contractor. It might even scare off potential future clients. I think he's doing the right thing by releasing it as OSS. Hopefully he'll pick up some support hours if anyone actually ends up using it.

Why would excluding his deadbeat client from using the code put him in an unflattering light?

PS: I once got stiffed for $6500, so I put up a "client hasn't paid" notice on the (demo) website for my code. I later learned that the guy I was accusing of non-payment was very likely a stolen identity. Some guy from Eastern Europe was using many fake identities and scamming lots of developers. So I ended up:

1) out $6500

2) feeling dumb for getting cheated in the first place

3) feeling bad for having pseudo-publicly excoriated a likely innocent

I wish in retrospect that I had taken the higher ground, open-sourced the code and just moved on.

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