Linux snickers at Microsoft's victory declaration • Hacker News Board

Re: Linux snickers at Microsoft's victory declaration

#21

Post by tybris » Tue, Aug 16, 2011, 9:35 PM UTC

gvb wrote: post #7

mindstab wrote: post #2

I guess "the year of the Linux desktop" may never come, but it also may be irrelevant :) Linux may still "win"

Mark Shuttleworth says Ubuntu is making inroads on desktops and is poised to take off: http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/738 FWIIW, IMHO there never will be a "year of the linux desktop." Linux on the desktop is an infiltration, not a blitzkrieg. As such, it will only be recognizable in retrospect.

I've switched back to Windows from Ubuntu. I found one of the big reasons for me to use Linux was how much easier it was to move around / manage files between my desktop and other machines using the command-line.

With Dropbox, that has become less relevant for me. I just have a Linux server sitting somewhere that is kept automatically in sync with my Windows desktop and I can open an SSH session with a single click. With the pain of moving stuff back and forth in Windows gone, I no longer care for the pain of stuff like getting Flash or a Java plug-in to work in Linux.

Re: Linux snickers at Microsoft's victory declaration

#22

Post by CurtHagenlocher » Tue, Aug 16, 2011, 9:36 PM UTC

Microsoft declared victory? Was there a press release, or some kind of public celebration? Somehow, I missed that. I work at Microsoft, and no one invited me to the party.

Both the original article and this followup are the worst kind of link bait.

Re: Linux snickers at Microsoft's victory declaration

#23

Post by justinsb » Tue, Aug 16, 2011, 9:43 PM UTC

recoiledsnake wrote: post #8

ch0wn wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty interested in seeing where Chrome OS will lead us to. I heard a lot of talk lately about moving support and other browser-based jobs to a Chromebook. If Google could gain a foothold in the business world, we could see a shift there.

Chromebook is interesting but it needs to be cheaper than the Windows alternatives as it was predicted to be before launch, somewhere at $199. Right now, for about the same money($450), more or less, you can buy a better equipped Windows laptop/netbook and then run Chrome browser on top of it. Add some free MSE antivirus and you've got a machine that's useful as a general purpose computer even without a constant teth…

Have you tried a ChromeBook? The current hardware is a bit slow, the software is still very much a version 1, but in my experience it's like an iPad for "real computing": because it has a keyboard you can use it for emails etc, and in my opinion it has a similar "joy factor" to the iPad - it lets you do what you want without overloading you with superfluous junk.

As someone that has had to deal with far too many Windows machines in the past, a Windows laptop with bolt-ons simply isn't the same experience. Perhaps if you put it into "kiosk mode", set Chrome to boot as the desktop, disabled the task bar, disabled running all other apps etc. But what you've got there is no longer Windows as far as the user is concerned, and so why would the hardware manufacturer pay Microsoft their $15 for the OS license?

Just like with Apple, there's possibly a price premium at the moment, but the scary thing for Microsoft is that - unlike Apple - there's no inherent reason for a price premium with a ChromeBook. Google could actually subsidize the price.

Re: Linux snickers at Microsoft's victory declaration

#24

Post by dredmorbius » Tue, Aug 16, 2011, 9:43 PM UTC

iamelgringo wrote: post #14

I've been interacting quite a bit with with Microsoft people in the last couple of years. I was shocked to meet a bunch of people within Microsoft that have recently migrated there from Sun. Joel Franusic, the BizSpark evangelist for Silicon Valley has roots as a php/perl/linux Admin, and has been a Super Happy Dev House organizer since the early days. They are working really hard to change Microsoft's attitude towar…

That's all well and good.

But.

But: I've been hearing this for well over a decade. "Microsoft's attitude toward Linux is changing." Again and again and again and again.

And then some new instance of FUD emerges, or a legal attack on a Free Software / open source advocate or company, some trumped-up performance benchmark, chairs in low-earth orbit. Whatever. The behavior has always failed to match the rhetoric.

I'm sure there are people at Microsoft who like Linux and respect it a bunch. With a few tens of thousands of employees, I also suspect there are those who dislike it, hate it, and/or misunderstand it badly.

As for the company as a whole, my read is that the overall attitude remains negative.

I'll believe there's a lovefest for Linux after 5-10 years of non-idiotic behavior from Microsoft.

As for caring: not so much anymore. Microsoft are increasingly irrelevant to the tech landscape. Not that they don't have a huge presence, but it's simiply not as significant to future development as it was ten or twenty years ago. Apple have a bigger market cap and are dominating emerging consumer markets (phones, tablets), Google are beating hard on Apple's heels and are pushing traditional enterprise tools (desktop apps, mail, calendar) into the cloud. Various cloud service providers are abstracting large server farms for many organizations. You can get your job done while only touching on Microsoft products very tangentially in more and more places.

It's no longer a world of "a PC on every desktop and Microsoft Windows on every PC". Not by a long shot.

Re: Linux snickers at Microsoft's victory declaration

#25

Post by recoiledsnake » Tue, Aug 16, 2011, 9:50 PM UTC

justinsb wrote: post #23

recoiledsnake wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chromebook is interesting but it needs to be cheaper than the Windows alternatives as it was predicted to be before launch, somewhere at $199. Right now, for about the same money($450), more or less, you can buy a better equipped Windows laptop/netbook and then run Chrome browser on top of it. Add some free MSE antivirus and you've got a machine that's useful as a general purpose computer even without a constant teth…

Have you tried a ChromeBook? The current hardware is a bit slow, the software is still very much a version 1, but in my experience it's like an iPad for "real computing": because it has a keyboard you can use it for emails etc, and in my opinion it has a similar "joy factor" to the iPad - it lets you do what you want without overloading you with superfluous junk. As someone that has had to deal with far too many Wind…

I haven't tried a Chromebook yet, will try to get my hands on one.

>Just like with Apple, there's possibly a price premium at the moment, but the scary thing for Microsoft is that - unlike Apple - there's no inherent reason for a price premium with a ChromeBook. Google could actually subsidize the price.

That's what the speculation was before they set the price, that it will debut at around $150 to $200. But it didn't happen yet.

Also, did you take a look at Windows 8?

Re: Linux snickers at Microsoft's victory declaration

#26

Post by metageek » Tue, Aug 16, 2011, 9:59 PM UTC

recoiledsnake wrote: post #8

ch0wn wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty interested in seeing where Chrome OS will lead us to. I heard a lot of talk lately about moving support and other browser-based jobs to a Chromebook. If Google could gain a foothold in the business world, we could see a shift there.

Chromebook is interesting but it needs to be cheaper than the Windows alternatives as it was predicted to be before launch, somewhere at $199. Right now, for about the same money($450), more or less, you can buy a better equipped Windows laptop/netbook and then run Chrome browser on top of it. Add some free MSE antivirus and you've got a machine that's useful as a general purpose computer even without a constant teth…

Chromebooks start at $350.

Re: Linux snickers at Microsoft's victory declaration

#27

Post by justinsb » Tue, Aug 16, 2011, 10:00 PM UTC

recoiledsnake wrote: post #25

justinsb wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you tried a ChromeBook? The current hardware is a bit slow, the software is still very much a version 1, but in my experience it's like an iPad for "real computing": because it has a keyboard you can use it for emails etc, and in my opinion it has a similar "joy factor" to the iPad - it lets you do what you want without overloading you with superfluous junk. As someone that has had to deal with far too many Wind…

I haven't tried a Chromebook yet, will try to get my hands on one. >Just like with Apple, there's possibly a price premium at the moment, but the scary thing for Microsoft is that - unlike Apple - there's no inherent reason for a price premium with a ChromeBook. Google could actually subsidize the price. That's what the speculation was before they set the price, that it will debut at around $150 to $200. But it didn'…

I definitely agree that it isn't an obvious choice at the current price point, but perhaps that's because Google knows that it isn't ready yet (needs better hardware, offline support in Google Apps, a more sensible approach to managing files). It's definitely worth borrowing one to try it out though - you do get a good sense of what a cloud-orientated machine will be like.

I suppose if you're going to try out a ChromeBook, it's only fair that I try out Windows 8. That prospect doesn't exactly fill me with joy though!

Re: Linux snickers at Microsoft's victory declaration

#28

Post by sdkmvx » Tue, Aug 16, 2011, 10:33 PM UTC

ajross wrote: post #13

macco wrote: post #9

As a great Ubuntu fan I must say: It's strange why mobile plattforms are always a example for the success of Linux. Android may be using a Linux kernel, but it has next to nothing to do with traditionel Linux distros, that are developed in colaboration.

This is more a myth than reality. It's definitely not a compatible environment, but I'd argue with "next to nothing". Android shares the same kernel, is built with the same toolchain, has the same underlying POSIX environment (albeit a reimplemented one, not the GNU software itself), uses most of the same base library set (libjpeg, zlib, etc...), uses most of the same middleware components (bluez, wpa_supplicant, etc…

It's interesting that you say this. If POSIX was all that there is to it, then isn't Apple iOS/Mac OS the same as Android and (insert-your-favorite-distro-here) Linux? I think ultimately the differences between user-facing (and even developer-facing, API-level stuff) components are way more important than the fact that POSIX is so common. After all, we would't describe two computers as basically the same because they both have a CPU/RAM/Storage unless we were comparing them to say, a car.

Re: Linux snickers at Microsoft's victory declaration

#29

Post by mrb » Tue, Aug 16, 2011, 10:55 PM UTC

macco wrote: post #9

As a great Ubuntu fan I must say: It's strange why mobile plattforms are always a example for the success of Linux. Android may be using a Linux kernel, but it has next to nothing to do with traditionel Linux distros, that are developed in colaboration.

Why restrict yourself to traditional distros? The biggest advantage of Linux that its supporters have been explaining for a while is that because it is open source, it can be modified to suit your needs and build whatever cool product you want with it.

Google did just that with Android. Therefore it is a perfectly valid example for this article to claim rightfully that Linux is winning.

Re: Linux snickers at Microsoft's victory declaration

#30

Post by ajross » Tue, Aug 16, 2011, 11:04 PM UTC

sdkmvx wrote: post #28

ajross wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is more a myth than reality. It's definitely not a compatible environment, but I'd argue with "next to nothing". Android shares the same kernel, is built with the same toolchain, has the same underlying POSIX environment (albeit a reimplemented one, not the GNU software itself), uses most of the same base library set (libjpeg, zlib, etc...), uses most of the same middleware components (bluez, wpa_supplicant, etc…

It's interesting that you say this. If POSIX was all that there is to it, then isn't Apple iOS/Mac OS the same as Android and (insert-your-favorite-distro-here) Linux? I think ultimately the differences between user-facing (and even developer-facing, API-level stuff) components are way more important than the fact that POSIX is so common. After all, we would't describe two computers as basically the same because they…

All I'm saying is that by any complexity metric you want to pick (lines of code, whatever) Android and "Linux" are far, far more alike than different. The layer you are picking as "way more important" only seems more important to you because it's the layer you live in.

The rest of the software is really important too (where would you be without the networking stack or video codecs, for example?) and to those people (and there are lot of us!) bringing up software on Android is more or less the same as doing it on desktop linux.