Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Developer open-sources 200+ hr project after client refuses to pay

github.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 136 posts

Re: Developer open-sources 200+ hr project after client refuses to pay

#71

Post by tptacek »

getsat wrote: post #45
mattgreenrocks wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you run into any pushback from potential clients when you tell them this?

I imagine he does, but those are probably also the type of clients you don't want to be accepting anyways.

Or any company large enough to have a purchasing department or in-house counsel. I'm just saying, be careful with black-and-white stuff like this. Your rule of thumb will serve you in good stead with small local clients, or fledgeling startups. It's a lot sketchier with BigCos. BigCos don't dick around with payables; it costs them more not to pay you than it does just to respond to the damn invoice. They may take forever+30 to pay you, but they will pay you, and they know it, and so they're a lot less likely to go through the contortions they need to go through to pay you anything up front.

Re: Developer open-sources 200+ hr project after client refuses to pay

#73

Post by smackfu »

tptacek wrote: post #71
getsat wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine he does, but those are probably also the type of clients you don't want to be accepting anyways.

Or any company large enough to have a purchasing department or in-house counsel. I'm just saying, be careful with black-and-white stuff like this. Your rule of thumb will serve you in good stead with small local clients, or fledgeling startups. It's a lot sketchier with BigCos. BigCos don't dick around with payables; it costs them more not to pay you than it does just to respond to the damn invoice. They may take for…

Our BigCo to BigCo contracts are 50% payable on signing, 50% payable on delivery. But it's a longstanding relationship, so it's not like either side is going to walk.

Re: Developer open-sources 200+ hr project after client refuses to pay

#74

Post by driverdan »

daimyoyo wrote: post #35
molecule wrote: post #10

For those who would like to avoid this situation, Mike Monteiro (@Mike_FTW) has humorously useful advice for contractors: F*ck You. Pay Me. http://vimeo.com/22053820

Awesome video. Not safe for work, but if you're freelancing, I'd HIGHLY recommend watching it.

How is it not work safe? If you can't say fuck at work it's time to find a new job.

Re: Developer open-sources 200+ hr project after client refuses to pay

#75

Post by byoung2 »

tptacek wrote: post #71
getsat wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine he does, but those are probably also the type of clients you don't want to be accepting anyways.

Or any company large enough to have a purchasing department or in-house counsel. I'm just saying, be careful with black-and-white stuff like this. Your rule of thumb will serve you in good stead with small local clients, or fledgeling startups. It's a lot sketchier with BigCos. BigCos don't dick around with payables; it costs them more not to pay you than it does just to respond to the damn invoice. They may take for…

Your rule of thumb will serve you in good stead with small local clients, or fledgeling startups

That is a good point that I didn't make clear in my earlier posts. As a freelancer, by choice I only dealt with individuals, small businesses, and startups. I soon found that the $10000 mark was the upper limit for projects those types of clients go for. Above that and you start having to deal with big companies and their bureaucracy, lawyers, etc. Those projects took forever to close because the CTO or some VP needed to sign off. But you know they can and will pay...eventually. We ended up avoiding those jobs just because it meant less headaches, getting paid quicker, and that we would have the upper hand in negotiating. There is nothing wrong with going after the low-hanging fruit.

Re: Developer open-sources 200+ hr project after client refuses to pay

#76

Post by tptacek »

smackfu wrote: post #73
tptacek wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or any company large enough to have a purchasing department or in-house counsel. I'm just saying, be careful with black-and-white stuff like this. Your rule of thumb will serve you in good stead with small local clients, or fledgeling startups. It's a lot sketchier with BigCos. BigCos don't dick around with payables; it costs them more not to pay you than it does just to respond to the damn invoice. They may take for…

Our BigCo to BigCo contracts are 50% payable on signing, 50% payable on delivery. But it's a longstanding relationship, so it's not like either side is going to walk.

I originally wrote something to the effect of "BigCos are never going to pay you up front", but tried to go back and edit my comments to hedge this, knowing that someone here would have some kind of counterexample.

I don't have a black and white rule here; I'll just say two things:

* BigCos usually have payable processes, and if they do, your contact at the BigCo is unlikely to have the authority to short-circuit them unless your service is so cheap that they have direct signing authority for it. Otherwise, what you're fighting with the payment-upfront negotiation is the friction it takes to change any part of a BigCo's "how do we release invoices for payment" process. If anyone with title =~ /purchasing/i is involved in your negotiation, give this up.

* Equally importantly, the payment upfront clause mitigates a risk you mostly don't have with BigCo's. Upfront payment is earnest money. You need earnest money when the amount of money you're working with is large enough to be worth your client stiffing you over. For a BigCo, almost any first project you do is going to be worth less than that amount; your $15k web project is a rounding error to them, and any real dispute over payment is going to cost them more than $15k in the end, and they absolutely know it.

Re: Developer open-sources 200+ hr project after client refuses to pay

#77

Post by pilif »

tptacek wrote: post #61

He should have AGPL3'd this code, and put a standing offer for a royalty-free unencumbered free license to anyone who contacts him directly. The net result would have been the same, but his deadbeat client wouldn't get the code for free.

... because the AGPL would for sure stop them from using the code without giving anything back considering that they didn't even pay the author for his contract work.

Re: Developer open-sources 200+ hr project after client refuses to pay

#78

Post by jtdowney »

tptacek wrote: post #61

He should have AGPL3'd this code, and put a standing offer for a royalty-free unencumbered free license to anyone who contacts him directly. The net result would have been the same, but his deadbeat client wouldn't get the code for free.

That is assuming the deadbeat client cares about following license restrictions.

Re: Developer open-sources 200+ hr project after client refuses to pay

#80

Post by idlewords »

tptacek wrote: post #69
byoung2 wrote: post #2

After spending 200+ hours developing the system, not a dime has been seen or given Freelancers should always try to get at least a deposit upfront. When I was freelancing, I would get 100% upfront for projects under $500, 50% upfront for projects between $500 and $2000. For projects over $2000, I would get 25% upfront, and then set milestones with payments attached. I had a $7500 project once where the guy made the f…

We're a small company relative to the kinds of companies who usually contract out dev or tech work, and we will pay something up front. Probably closer to 25% than 50%, but we wouldn't get mad if you asked 50%. I'm saying this as a data point for people just getting started who might be nervous about asking for payment up front. If we'll do it, I'm sure many other people will too. It's a reasonable request. On the ot…

An additional wrinkle is that oftentimes it can take a while to set up the mechanics of payment with a first-time client. So even if there is goodwill on both sides and a willingness to pay an initial deposit, you might not see the money until you've done quite a lot of work.

Since a lot of contract work is time-sensitive, waiting for payment to clear before starting work or handing over an initial milestone might not be an option. There's a tension between the desire to make a good impression on a first-time client and the desire to make sure they're not taking you for a ride.

Fortunately there are often warning signs when a client is going to be particularly difficult, and there are far more decent clients than unsavory ones.

Post reply on HN