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Software Freedom Conservancy files GPL lawsuit against Vizio

sfconservancy.org

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Re: Software Freedom Conservancy files GPL lawsuit against Vizio

#61
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems strange to me that they'd adopt this strategy in the U.S. because of past failures in other countries. Gplv2 makes pretty clear it's a copyright license, so I see no reason it would be interpreted under contract law in the U.S., and as a layperson it seems unlikely that SFC would have standing in this case. Has a third party beneficiary ever been held to have standing in a copyright case?

It is strange, but I have seen in novel court cases where cases in other countries are used as an example. It is possible that they want the court to either confirm that GPL should be treated as a copyright license and not a contract, or that GPL can be seen as a contract in which users has a third-party beneficiary role. When they have that ruling they can use it as an example in countries where a gpl case has yet t…

> I have seen in novel court cases where cases in other countries are used as an example

Do you mean novel court cases in the U.S. referencing cases from other countries? My impression was the U.S. was loath to base legal decisions on those from other countries (with the exception of British common law from before U.S. independence). Contrast this to Europe where the EU has adopted common European courts. It would be less surprising if you were talking about European courts cross-referencing each other.

I just don't know why they'd choose this strategy, except as a hail mary to create a new standing doctrine for software license. Has suing on behalf of the copyright holders proven insufficient in the U.S.?

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy files GPL lawsuit against Vizio

#62

An especially novel aspect of this lawsuit, quoting the press release: > This approach makes it the first legal case that focuses on the rights of individual consumers as third-party beneficiaries of the GPL. > “That’s what makes this litigation unique and historic in terms of defending consumer rights,” says Karen M. Sandler, the organization’s executive director. In the past, GPL enforcement has been a cause of act…

Were none of the contributors to the original software willing to participate in the conservatory's case?

That's a good question.

The linked press kit says:

> not only do multiple copies of the Linux kernel appear in the firmware, other GPL’d and LGPL’d programs were found, including U-Boot, bash, gawk, tar, glibc, and ffmpeg.

The copyright for bash, gawk, tar, and glibc is owned by the Free Software Foundation. The FSF requires copyright assignment on contributions specifically so that they can enforce the GPL. So, if the FSF is unwilling to participate in the case, then that would say something very bad about the state of the FSF (or the state of their relationship with Conservancy--perhaps the FSF would prefer to mount their own case separately?). However, I don't believe that to be the case.

It is my understanding that Conservancy holds the copyright on parts of the Linux kernel, and is authorized to represent several other copyright holders of the kernel. They should be able to enforce the GPL for the kernel without getting anyone else involved.

So to me, this reads as Conservancy intentionally avoiding involving the copyright holders and going for a different strategy, in order to establish precedent and strengthen the GPL. And if that fails, then they could presumably fall back to filing a second lawsuit from the traditional copyright holder perspective. But I would have liked to see this called out and explained explicitly in the press materials, because I'm having to read between the lines here.

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy files GPL lawsuit against Vizio

#63
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were none of the contributors to the original software willing to participate in the conservatory's case?

That's a good question. The linked press kit says: > not only do multiple copies of the Linux kernel appear in the firmware, other GPL’d and LGPL’d programs were found, including U-Boot, bash, gawk, tar, glibc, and ffmpeg. The copyright for bash, gawk, tar, and glibc is owned by the Free Software Foundation. The FSF requires copyright assignment on contributions specifically so that they can enforce the GPL. So, if t…

I'd be surprised if Conservancy holds kernel copyrights directly, but I agree they can represent holders, as I think they have with e.g. Christoph Hellwig vs. VMWare.

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy files GPL lawsuit against Vizio

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t that the idea of the “TiVoisation” clause in the GPLv3? Basically, TiVo released their Linux derivative code, but you couldn’t actually flash your version. The problem is that Linus is staunchly against the GPLv3

> The problem is that Linus is staunchly against the GPLv3 No he isn't. He is unable to relicense the kernel. Whenever he's interviewed on the subject it is always in relation to kernel development. He doesn't control the copyright on the entire codebase and there are too many contributors, some dead, for anyone to get copyright assignment sorted out.

[deleted]

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy files GPL lawsuit against Vizio

#65

While I'm in favor of this, it makes me question somewhat the potential unintended consequences of something like this, in that it makes shipping actual hardware devices with actual software on the device even less appealing. That is, if I provide a SaaS platform, my understanding is that even if I use all types of GPL code to run my service, as long as I don't "ship" the code for that service to end users (which is…

that's why i am a huge fan of the AGPL - prevents this from happening.

If you leverage your product with open source, there must be some sort of contribution back - either you pay the creators of the open source with a license fee, or re-contribute your own efforts via source code release.

there shouldn't be free lunches.

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy files GPL lawsuit against Vizio

#66
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good question. The linked press kit says: > not only do multiple copies of the Linux kernel appear in the firmware, other GPL’d and LGPL’d programs were found, including U-Boot, bash, gawk, tar, glibc, and ffmpeg. The copyright for bash, gawk, tar, and glibc is owned by the Free Software Foundation. The FSF requires copyright assignment on contributions specifically so that they can enforce the GPL. So, if t…

I'd be surprised if Conservancy holds kernel copyrights directly, but I agree they can represent holders, as I think they have with e.g. Christoph Hellwig vs. VMWare.

Prepare to be surprised :-).

https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/

Oh, I may have misunderstood you there, apologies if so. Conservancy can handle compliance and enforcement activities on behalf of more than a dozen Linux copyright holders, but I don't actually know if they hold the copyrights. Sorry if I misunderstood.

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy files GPL lawsuit against Vizio

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be surprised if Conservancy holds kernel copyrights directly, but I agree they can represent holders, as I think they have with e.g. Christoph Hellwig vs. VMWare.

Prepare to be surprised :-). https://sfconservancy.org/copyleft-compliance/ Oh, I may have misunderstood you there, apologies if so. Conservancy can handle compliance and enforcement activities on behalf of more than a dozen Linux copyright holders, but I don't actually know if they hold the copyrights. Sorry if I misunderstood.

> but I don't actually know if they hold the copyrights

According to the page you linked, they do:

> In addition, some developers have directly assigned their copyrights on Linux to Conservancy, so Conservancy also enforces the GPL on Linux via its own copyrights in Linux.

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy files GPL lawsuit against Vizio

#68

Question: if I sell my old Visio TV that violates the GPL, am I now also in violation of the license since I’m redistributing it?

Yes absolutely. You would be redistributing the software with the TV. That said, I can't imagine anyone would actually file a lawsuit in a situation like this.

More worrying is whether Costco and Walmart could be sued under this theory. Vizio sells very few TVs directly.

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy files GPL lawsuit against Vizio

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t that the idea of the “TiVoisation” clause in the GPLv3? Basically, TiVo released their Linux derivative code, but you couldn’t actually flash your version. The problem is that Linus is staunchly against the GPLv3

> The problem is that Linus is staunchly against the GPLv3 No he isn't. He is unable to relicense the kernel. Whenever he's interviewed on the subject it is always in relation to kernel development. He doesn't control the copyright on the entire codebase and there are too many contributors, some dead, for anyone to get copyright assignment sorted out.

You are right that he can't unilaterally relicense the kernel and that it will likely never happen, but Linus is in fact against the GPLv3, see debconf 14 Q&A: https://youtu.be/5PmHRSeA2c8?t=2840

Re: Software Freedom Conservancy files GPL lawsuit against Vizio

#70

An especially novel aspect of this lawsuit, quoting the press release: > This approach makes it the first legal case that focuses on the rights of individual consumers as third-party beneficiaries of the GPL. > “That’s what makes this litigation unique and historic in terms of defending consumer rights,” says Karen M. Sandler, the organization’s executive director. In the past, GPL enforcement has been a cause of act…

If this strategy becomes validated by this case, it means that any organisation can bring GPL compliance lawsuits. Hopefully that leads to companies noting their increased potential for liability by multiple less scrupulous actors than SFC and spontaneously coming into compliance.
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