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Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

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Re: Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

#81

Post by sushid »

rus20376 wrote: post #79
kfprt wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't companies also use the 6 years that they employ a foreigner to train an American worker to fill the position? A bachelors program is only 4 years and the company could sponsor it if they were in such desperate need.

top comment so far! exactly correct! believe it or not companies would actually hire junior staff and train them up on the job and promote from within. let 's get back to that.

Companies do this all the time. Present day. They don't hire new grads thinking they're staff engineers on day 1. They hire them to train them up and promote them within the company.

Re: Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

#82

Post by joshka »

a-and wrote: post #49

In this thread there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding regarding both the Permanent/Temporary visa distinction, as well as what Facebook did. The lawsuit refers to the Permanent Labor Certification process - the process of certifying that a position cannot be filled by a US citizen. This is one of the first early steps of an employer sponsoring an employee for a Green Card (so called immigrant visas, not H1-B). I…

> > When U.S. workers did apply, the suit said, Facebook hired them into different jobs, reserving the open position for the H-1B worker.

> Is this discrimination? Yes.

It's fairly common practice to hire for the expertise and fit for the position. How is this different in that regard?

Re: Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

#83

Post by joshka »

kfprt wrote: post #69
darth_avocado wrote: post #43

It’s a relic of a broken process. If you want to keep a foreign worker beyond 6 years, you can’t do that without applying for a greencard which in turn requires you to prove you don’t have a US citizen vying for the job, which should make sense. However the problem here is that the government instead of keeping a track of the country’s labor needs, outsourced this responsibility to the companies and that’s where the…

Couldn't companies also use the 6 years that they employ a foreigner to train an American worker to fill the position? A bachelors program is only 4 years and the company could sponsor it if they were in such desperate need.

Do you perceive this is an either/or proposition?

Re: Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

#84

Post by sushid »

kfprt wrote: post #69
darth_avocado wrote: post #43

It’s a relic of a broken process. If you want to keep a foreign worker beyond 6 years, you can’t do that without applying for a greencard which in turn requires you to prove you don’t have a US citizen vying for the job, which should make sense. However the problem here is that the government instead of keeping a track of the country’s labor needs, outsourced this responsibility to the companies and that’s where the…

Couldn't companies also use the 6 years that they employ a foreigner to train an American worker to fill the position? A bachelors program is only 4 years and the company could sponsor it if they were in such desperate need.

These roles are varied and not traditionally new grad roles. The qualification requirement is also not just a degree. It can be something like 3+ experience with some infra tooling.

Lastly, I think we'd all agree that a graduate with the same degree can have varied performance and there's no guarantee that some sponsored person will come back with the degree and the skills they clearly need ASAP.

Re: Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

#85

Post by newfriend »

davidw wrote: post #22

The elephant in the room: make it too hard to employ talented foreigners, and sooner or later companies will just open up offices there, rather than here. Remote work has only made this easier. I want smart, hard working, talented people coming to the US, myself.

I want MY government to prioritize its citizens, i.e. ME.

Re: Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

#86

Post by closeparen »

kfprt wrote: post #69
darth_avocado wrote: post #43

It’s a relic of a broken process. If you want to keep a foreign worker beyond 6 years, you can’t do that without applying for a greencard which in turn requires you to prove you don’t have a US citizen vying for the job, which should make sense. However the problem here is that the government instead of keeping a track of the country’s labor needs, outsourced this responsibility to the companies and that’s where the…

Couldn't companies also use the 6 years that they employ a foreigner to train an American worker to fill the position? A bachelors program is only 4 years and the company could sponsor it if they were in such desperate need.

I think success at this kind of work has more to do with traits than with education or experience per se. Probably there are some Americans with the traits who are undereducated for preventable reasons.

Re: Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

#87

Post by kfprt »

closeparen wrote: post #86
kfprt wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't companies also use the 6 years that they employ a foreigner to train an American worker to fill the position? A bachelors program is only 4 years and the company could sponsor it if they were in such desperate need.

I think success at this kind of work has more to do with traits than with education or experience per se. Probably there are some Americans with the traits who are undereducated for preventable reasons.

Traits? What traits? Is the implication here that Americans aren't hard workers? That's the only interpretation that parses.

Re: Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

#88

Post by kfprt »

sushid wrote: post #84
kfprt wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't companies also use the 6 years that they employ a foreigner to train an American worker to fill the position? A bachelors program is only 4 years and the company could sponsor it if they were in such desperate need.

These roles are varied and not traditionally new grad roles. The qualification requirement is also not just a degree. It can be something like 3+ experience with some infra tooling. Lastly, I think we'd all agree that a graduate with the same degree can have varied performance and there's no guarantee that some sponsored person will come back with the degree and the skills they clearly need ASAP.

They claim they are in desperate need and that's why they have to hire foreigners. Surely 6 years is enough time for them to rectify the situation if it were as desperate as they claim. If they can't find a solution in 6 years then they are either unmotivated or unwilling. This is their problem, not ours.

If your business was to collapse in 6 years why would you not spend that time finding a solution.

Re: Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

#89

Post by pedrosorio »

busymom0 wrote: post #36
WesolyKubeczek wrote: post #23

This is a perfect case of good intentions on both sides creating hell. I've been sponsored in a country with similar requirements - every time you hire someone from abroad, you need to present evidence that you have tried really hard to hire someone local and failed. The levels of absurd there are likely the highest in the whole decade-long quest of my naturalization. Just this once, my sympathies are with Facebook.

> good intentions on both sides creating hell Not really. The immigrant folks who get brought in on these visas are basically exploited for harder work on lower wages in comparison to locals. FAANG tech companies care about low labour cost, employees who won't complain and won't report shady stuff going on in the company. H1B visas are perfect for that. Immigrants make up nearly 3/4 of silicon valley tech workforce:…

> FAANG tech companies care about low labour cost, employees who won't complain and won't report shady stuff going on in the company. H1B visas are perfect for that.

FAANG tech companies pay their H1B holders the same as they do permanent residents / citizens.

This settlement is about Facebook facilitating the process for H1B holders working there to acquire green cards (i.e. "set them free"), the exact opposite of what you would do if you wanted to keep employees who won't complain as long as possible.

Re: Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

#90

Post by darth_avocado »

kfprt wrote: post #69
darth_avocado wrote: post #43

It’s a relic of a broken process. If you want to keep a foreign worker beyond 6 years, you can’t do that without applying for a greencard which in turn requires you to prove you don’t have a US citizen vying for the job, which should make sense. However the problem here is that the government instead of keeping a track of the country’s labor needs, outsourced this responsibility to the companies and that’s where the…

Couldn't companies also use the 6 years that they employ a foreigner to train an American worker to fill the position? A bachelors program is only 4 years and the company could sponsor it if they were in such desperate need.

Unfortunately a lot of these jobs aren’t exactly jobs that you can train someone from 0. These are jobs that require advanced education and the ability to be able to grasp certain concepts. They can’t just train anyone, but they can train university students in certain majors, which tbh they already do. All of these companies hire a TON of fresh grads, which is exactly what you’re saying, training someone to do the job. Why wouldn’t they? It’s cheaper to hire a university grad in the USA than get an experienced professional from abroad.

However, if you look closely, even that pipeline is kind of skewed. Very few Americans pursue advanced degrees, and even when they do, they concentrate towards business or some other non stem course. My Phd cohort consisted of 12 people out of which 7 were non citizens.

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