Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

#31

Post by kfprt » Tue, Oct 19, 2021, 6:52 PM UTC

outworlder wrote: post #26

kfprt wrote: post #2

>The tech industry broadly relies on H-1B visas to plug gaps in their technical workforce, Does America not have schools or would Facebook rather just underpay foreigners? 14$ million is peanuts compared to the scope of H1B fraud.

> compared to the scope of H1B fraud. Which is largely overblown for political gain. Some companies abuse/have abused the program - mostly large consultancies. Focus on that. H1 is a US superpower. Companies can pick brains among the entire planet(many of those brains WANT to be picked). At essentially no cost to the country. Yes, each one will 'take' a job, but how many jobs are created by immigrants? The yearly cap…

>Are you talking about the ridiculously expensive universities(and higher education in general)? Maybe fix that?

Interesting question that. I think the issue is that corporations realized training employees was a cost center and decided to outsource as much of it as possible to, as you said, ridiculously expensive universities. Of course no general education could ever be perfectly aligned with the individual needs of millions of unique positions at different corporations. The fix here is for companies to reopen their own training pipelines.

Re: Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

#32

Post by lnxg33k1 » Tue, Oct 19, 2021, 6:56 PM UTC

barelysapient wrote: post #15

Is it just me, or are American settlements against tech companies always laughably small compared to Europe and elsewhere?

I think that there's a conflict of interests somewhere, consider that according to the data 50% of US population owns stock, 80% of the high income population, consider that US retirement funds like 401k are directly dependent on how Inc. perform, I am not sure this is not a bullshit, but I think US in general doesn't like fines to companies and I think one reason might be this direct interest of the population in the corporations revenues

Edit, source: https://news.gallup.com/poll/266807/percentage-americans-own...

Re: Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

#33

Post by JadeNB » Tue, Oct 19, 2021, 6:56 PM UTC

Levitz wrote: post #16

causi wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook was doing the opposite. accused the social-media company of illegally reserving lucrative jobs for immigrant workers it was sponsoring for permanent residence instead of searching for and considering available U.S. workers.

I think everybody rightly assumes they reserved those spots precisely so they could underpay them.

One can dispute the facts of the article, but the quoted sentence specifically says 'lucrative'.

Re: Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

#34

Post by spamizbad » Tue, Oct 19, 2021, 6:57 PM UTC

WesolyKubeczek wrote: post #24

jmwilson wrote: post #20

An earlier article has a bit more description of the complaint: https://archive.md/67DiB For those curious about how this works, the company has to show it tried and couldn't hire a US resident, but they don't have to try very hard... so the company posts a brief job opening in a local newspaper. When nobody responds, because it's the newspaper, tada! Proof there was no American-based talent capable of filling the jo…

Is this a requirement in the US just for the initial hire, or do you also need to do the same when turning temporary position into a permanent one so your employee has a reason to apply for permanent residence, too?

My understanding is its only before you can sponsor a visa. H1 transfers do not require such efforts.

The other way companies do this: creating job ads that look impossible to fill by requiring 5 years of experience in a technology that's only been around for 2 years.

Surprised Facebook does this as they certainly have no issue paying domestic employees top dollar.

Re: Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

#35

Post by JadeNB » Tue, Oct 19, 2021, 6:58 PM UTC

kfprt wrote: post #31

outworlder wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> compared to the scope of H1B fraud. Which is largely overblown for political gain. Some companies abuse/have abused the program - mostly large consultancies. Focus on that. H1 is a US superpower. Companies can pick brains among the entire planet(many of those brains WANT to be picked). At essentially no cost to the country. Yes, each one will 'take' a job, but how many jobs are created by immigrants? The yearly cap…

>Are you talking about the ridiculously expensive universities(and higher education in general)? Maybe fix that? Interesting question that. I think the issue is that corporations realized training employees was a cost center and decided to outsource as much of it as possible to, as you said, ridiculously expensive universities. Of course no general education could ever be perfectly aligned with the individual needs o…

> I think the issue is that corporations realized training employees was a cost center and decided to outsource as much of it as possible to, as you said, ridiculously expensive universities.

As a university professor, hoo boy is that a bad bet. I have a lot of goals in the classroom, but training future employees is not one of them; and, despite the corporatist mindset of my (and I suspect most) university's administration, there is no guidance from the university that that should be a goal.

Re: Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

#36

Post by busymom0 » Tue, Oct 19, 2021, 7:05 PM UTC

WesolyKubeczek wrote: post #23

This is a perfect case of good intentions on both sides creating hell. I've been sponsored in a country with similar requirements - every time you hire someone from abroad, you need to present evidence that you have tried really hard to hire someone local and failed. The levels of absurd there are likely the highest in the whole decade-long quest of my naturalization. Just this once, my sympathies are with Facebook.

> good intentions on both sides creating hell

Not really.

The immigrant folks who get brought in on these visas are basically exploited for harder work on lower wages in comparison to locals. FAANG tech companies care about low labour cost, employees who won't complain and won't report shady stuff going on in the company. H1B visas are perfect for that.

Immigrants make up nearly 3/4 of silicon valley tech workforce:

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/01/17/h-1b-foreign-citizens...

H1B visas essentially gives full power over an immigrant to the employer because these employers have rules that if you don't get promoted every 1-2 years, you get fired - which means H1B visa employees get deported back. So these immigrants end up working much harder for lower pay to not get deported. Meanwhile the companies get cheap labour while virtue signalling about diversity.

Companies want employees who will stick around for as long as needed. H1B usually cannot leave the company for a decade because of the conditions imposed on the visa. Companies will also have policies of allowing greencard sponsorship after few years of the applicant working with them. This keeps the immigrant stuck with that company for over a decade and the company can get away with very little payraises or benefits. The only options for that H1B is to either find another company which can sponsor them (almost impossible) or to leave the country.

This is also a reason why immigrants are hesitant to report work illegalities and thus the company prefer hiring them even more.

This is also why all the tech companies are against any politician who wants to cut their supply of H1B visas.

The tech companies claim it's about diversity but it's far from it. Here's proof that this isn't about "diversity" or caring about immigrants but more about exploitation:

76% of the h1b go to Indians and 10% goes to China. Does diversity only come from India and China? Source:

https://www.gadgetsnow.com/slideshows/h1b-visa-these-countri...

Also when you get immigrants from India and China on H1B visas, they are less likely to complain about work place illegalities. Us Indians and Asians are often quite timid plus don't want to stir shit which gets us deported.

Few ways to fix this:

1. Increase the minimum salary for H1B to be much higher.

2. Force employers to give yearly raises to the H1B.

3. Allow H1B to change employers.

4. Only allow students to come who once graduated, get treated the same as a citizen and their immigration status isn't inquired.

These will remove the incentives for employers to exploit immigrants.

These 2 videos explain it well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFYj8Sg3x_c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-3FYea07pc

Re: Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

#37

Post by Jensson » Tue, Oct 19, 2021, 7:06 PM UTC

kfprt wrote: post #25

davidw wrote: post #22

The elephant in the room: make it too hard to employ talented foreigners, and sooner or later companies will just open up offices there, rather than here. Remote work has only made this easier. I want smart, hard working, talented people coming to the US, myself.

And I want a low unemployment rate so I can pay less in taxes due to the costs of welfare.

High skill immigrants are net pay tax payers, they help reduce the need to tax you.

Re: Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

#38

Post by kodah » Tue, Oct 19, 2021, 7:10 PM UTC

jmwilson wrote: post #20

An earlier article has a bit more description of the complaint: https://archive.md/67DiB For those curious about how this works, the company has to show it tried and couldn't hire a US resident, but they don't have to try very hard... so the company posts a brief job opening in a local newspaper. When nobody responds, because it's the newspaper, tada! Proof there was no American-based talent capable of filling the jo…

About ten years ago, I remember getting low-balled by most coastal tech companies while living in the South. Absurdly low-balled at that. I wonder if this kind of activity is related to this kind of scheme.

Re: Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

#39

Post by nrmitchi » Tue, Oct 19, 2021, 7:14 PM UTC

busymom0 wrote: post #36

WesolyKubeczek wrote: post #23

This is a perfect case of good intentions on both sides creating hell. I've been sponsored in a country with similar requirements - every time you hire someone from abroad, you need to present evidence that you have tried really hard to hire someone local and failed. The levels of absurd there are likely the highest in the whole decade-long quest of my naturalization. Just this once, my sympathies are with Facebook.

> good intentions on both sides creating hell Not really. The immigrant folks who get brought in on these visas are basically exploited for harder work on lower wages in comparison to locals. FAANG tech companies care about low labour cost, employees who won't complain and won't report shady stuff going on in the company. H1B visas are perfect for that. Immigrants make up nearly 3/4 of silicon valley tech workforce:…

When it comes to the topic of H1-B exploitation, there is no way I'm going to say that it doesn't exist.

But I will say that there is a huge gap between FAANG H1B, and Tata/Infosys/etc H1B abuse.

Re: Facebook Settles with U.S. Gov over Improperly Reserving Jobs for Immigrants

#40

Post by MisterBastahrd » Tue, Oct 19, 2021, 7:14 PM UTC

jmwilson wrote: post #20

An earlier article has a bit more description of the complaint: https://archive.md/67DiB For those curious about how this works, the company has to show it tried and couldn't hire a US resident, but they don't have to try very hard... so the company posts a brief job opening in a local newspaper. When nobody responds, because it's the newspaper, tada! Proof there was no American-based talent capable of filling the jo…

They should be expected to try hard.

Been a recruiter. It's comical what companies list in order to hire the cheap H1 they wanted all along. Absolutely no way anybody has the experience they claim they want most of the time.